| Register  | FAQ  | Search | Login 
It is currently Wed Oct 01, 2014 6:49 pm

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 108 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: The Red Flags of Quackery
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2012 11:04 pm 
Offline
Level 7 Vegan
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 10:54 pm
Posts: 1490
Location: Vancouver, BC
I'd just say keep your skeptical spectacles on about everything, from western medicine to homeopathy and everything in between.

This is an important discussion to have....but calling folks stupid for using certain remedies can get kind of mean. If they're not getting hurt by it, get some benefit out of it (be it the placebo effect or not) and have a trusting, nurturing relationship with their care provider it's still a positive thing. Health and healing is personal/spiritual (this comes from an atheist who believes in reincarnation)- and we need a more holistic view of health beyond the medical model.

_________________
NO MORE DRUG WAR


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Red Flags of Quackery
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 12:38 am 
Offline
Level 7 Vegan
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2010 1:15 am
Posts: 1534
Rowan wrote:
This is an important discussion to have....but calling folks stupid for using certain remedies can get kind of mean. If they're not getting hurt by it, get some benefit out of it (be it the placebo effect or not) and have a trusting, nurturing relationship with their care provider it's still a positive thing. Health and healing is personal/spiritual (this comes from an atheist who believes in reincarnation)- and we need a more holistic view of health beyond the medical model.

I really can't disagree with this enough. Deciding that something is positive because it has no more than a placebo effect sounds dangerous to me. It promotes scientific ignorance that results in people dying from treatable issues. I don't care how trusting or nurturing someone's relationship is if they are providing phony care.

_________________
"One time I meant to send a potential employer a resume, but I accidentally sent them a bucket of puke!

So embarrassing!" -just mumbles


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Red Flags of Quackery
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 1:17 am 
Offline
Loves Carrots (in the biblical sense)
User avatar

Joined: Wed May 23, 2012 1:59 am
Posts: 73
Location: Calgary, AB, Canada
Jigglypuff wrote:
I really can't disagree with this enough. Deciding that something is positive because it has no more than a placebo effect sounds dangerous to me. It promotes scientific ignorance that results in people dying from treatable issues. I don't care how trusting or nurturing someone's relationship is if they are providing phony care.

See, I agree that people should be getting regular medical treatment but if getting some unproven type of treatment on the side as well is not disruptive to your medical treatment and the person thinks it helps, then what's the harm? There is a certain amount of healing that is definitely aided by positive thinking and good mood even if there is no other benefit to the alternate treatment. I do agree with you that an alternate treatment should not take the place of real medicine when a real medical intervention is called for but... if someone wants to do Qigong or something as well as seeing doctors and it makes them feel better then power to them.

This conversation reminds me of listening to some gastroenterologists who were making fun of patients (during a procedure I was assisting with) who thought changing their diets could replace the use of medicines in dealing with their biliary issues. Patients on one side saying, "I won't take my meds I'm just going to change my diet" and getting sicker and doctors on the other side saying, "diet doesn't matter you stupid person just take these meds." Certain types of diets ARE helpful and could possibly get someone off their meds eventually BUT changing your diet should not be a substitute for medicine if you're in a critical medical situation.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Red Flags of Quackery
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 3:43 am 
Offline
Making Threats to Punks Again
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 2:00 pm
Posts: 1105
Location: Sweden
The problem with "treatments" with no demonstrated efficacy is that providers are misleading their patients and thus taking away their ability to give informed consent. People are scammed out of their money for some of these "remedies". I don't think that's ok. You can get an additional placebo effect from a treatment that actually works, and it doesn't require lying. The importance of the placebo effect is somewhat overrated anyhow when it comes to ineffective interventions, since many conditions would have improved over time either by themselves of because of additional treatments being used.

Eudemonia wrote:
That sort of chiropractic seems pretty "medical" to me. Is there another kind I don't know about? If so they definitely shouldn't be lumped together with my guy 'cause he's rad.

Yes, there's the kind that likes to blame any and all health problems on "subluxations" that interfere with the body's "innate intelligence". In some cases people have actually died after having their necks manipulated. There are some practitioners who are moving away from these traditional views. It's worth looking up the British Chiropractic Association v Singh case.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Red Flags of Quackery
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 4:37 am 
Online
Invented Vegan Meringue
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 2:18 pm
Posts: 3565
Location: It's hot. All the time.
Rowan wrote:
I'd just say keep your skeptical spectacles on about everything, from western medicine to homeopathy and everything in between.

This is an important discussion to have....but calling folks stupid for using certain remedies can get kind of mean. If they're not getting hurt by it, get some benefit out of it (be it the placebo effect or not) and have a trusting, nurturing relationship with their care provider it's still a positive thing. Health and healing is personal/spiritual (this comes from an atheist who believes in reincarnation)- and we need a more holistic view of health beyond the medical model.


Science based medicine is one thing; homeopathy is another all together. Homeopathy has never been proven to be efficacious. Ever. Water does not have a memory.
You can choose to believe in it but it's a matter of faith not medicine.

I also think that it's dangerous to believe that doctors and other science based medicine providers are cold and out for money and all faith based medicine practitioners are loving and just want what is best for you. "Alternative" medicines and supplements are huge, profitable industries. They also like to fight things like oversight or the need to prove that what they are selling you works.

There is plenty of information about chiropractic care out there. I try to remember that it was founded by a grocer and magnetic healer who claimed that he cured a deaf janitor by manipulating his spine.

_________________
A whole lot of access and privilege goes into being sanctimonious pricks J-Dub
Dessert is currently a big bowl of sanctimonious, passive aggressive vegan enduced boak. Fezza
You people are way less funny than Pandacookie. Sucks to be you.-interrobang?!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Red Flags of Quackery
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2012 9:02 am 
Offline
Flat Chesty McNoBoobs
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 11:41 am
Posts: 7522
Location: Portland
I do agree that it's good to be skeptical of everything, not just certain treatments or whatever. However, I am with chipmunk in saying that "it's not doing any harm" type treatments are actually harmful. I find it shocking that people are okay with the idea of medical or pseudo-medical practitioners, who are in a position of power and trust, lying to them and behaving in ways that, as chipmunk said, overcome informed consent.

All this is not even to get into the fact that just because a treatment makes a person subjectively feel better doesn't mean that they ARE better. A subjective feeling of improvement doesn't translate into reduced communicability and threat to others if a person's ailment is contagious. This is particularly true where the subject doesn't have true insight into the fact that their ailment is not being cured or resolved, and they may mistakenly think that their homeopathic remedy or whatever means they are no longer contagious and infect others as a result.

It's early and I haven't finished my coffee, so I hope that doesn't read like word salad.

_________________
If you spit on my food I will blow your forking head off, you filthy shitdog. - Mumbles
Don't you know that vegan meat is the gateway drug to chicken addiction? Because GMO and trans-fats. - kaerlighed


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Red Flags of Quackery
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2012 10:27 pm 
Offline
Level 7 Vegan
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 10:54 pm
Posts: 1490
Location: Vancouver, BC
Sorry guys...just ignore. I just wanted to maintain the peace and love and call it a night.

_________________
NO MORE DRUG WAR


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Red Flags of Quackery
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:46 am 
Offline
Wears Durian Helmet
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2010 5:03 pm
Posts: 844
I agree with what Rowan said about being skeptical of everything. Keep those spectacles on! Second opinions are good. Research is good. Blind faith/anecdotal evidence is bad. That goes for traditional and alternative treatment!


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 108 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
Template made by DEVPPL/ThatBigForum and fancied up by What Cheer