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 Post subject: Why does 'plant based' always have to equal fat hate?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 11:09 am 
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In case it needs to be said, I think paleo is dumb. But so is the fact that all of the promotions we hear lately are, "Look at these fat people! These fat people eat meat! You don't want to be fat fatties like these fat forks, do you? Plant-based*, fork yeah!" Not to mention that a lot of the people being attacked in this video are older, and when you get old...your metabolism often slows down. Because, gasp, there are other factors to weight besides your diet. And none of them are what would be considered morbidly obese, some of them I don't even think look fat, if we are using fat as just a descriptive term and not an insult.










*because vegans are crazy, judgmental crassholes and we do want to eat an egg every now and then.

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 Post subject: Re: Why does 'plant based' always have to equal fat hate?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 12:15 pm 
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ugh, I saw that video on the eat vegan for $4 a day person's facebook wall earlier and felt compelled to comment. Why do people think fat shaming is effective? And why do people that purport to promote scientifically based healthy eating resort to superficial, ignorant arguments? So frustrating.

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 Post subject: Re: Why does 'plant based' always have to equal fat hate?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 12:26 pm 
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i agree. none of them really look all that fat. (i actually think the plant based people might look a little too gaunt, but either way, if they feel healthy, that's all that matters.)

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 Post subject: Re: Why does 'plant based' always have to equal fat hate?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 1:11 pm 
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Please, no speculating about people being too fat, not fat enough, too gaunt, etc. Thank you!

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 Post subject: Re: Why does 'plant based' always have to equal fat hate?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 1:25 pm 
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Some people are naturally slim or even gaunt looking, I don't think anyone in this video looks odd or horrible or "Holy shiitake, you don't want to look like THIS person, do you?!" Not that their examples matter when the message is the same. Actually, I think this may be worse because it's conveying that being overweight at all is just god awful, not just obese.

God forbid anyone ever made a video slideshow of fat vegans to argue against us, which could easily be do--shit. We're gonna end up on meatmeat.

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 Post subject: Re: Why does 'plant based' always have to equal fat hate?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 1:40 pm 
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Yeah. This stuff sucks so bad. It really plays to the whole "us against them" mentality, which is counterproductive, and it plays to people's fears about having certain types of bodies, which is shitty and also counterproductive. I guess that groups probably engage in this type of tactic because it probably gets lots of page hits/views, and because it presents a convenient, oversimplified point for people to rally behind. People will watch it and maybe share it on facebook, but it seems unlikely to me that these types of shame and fear and bullshit-based campaigns generate a lot of lasting change.

The problem with selling veganism is that essentially you're trying to sell people on the (unpopular) idea that their personal desires and tastes and appetites shouldn't trump the good of some larger group/entity (whether that's the animals, the environment, society at large, etc.). Most people just aren't going to be interested in that kind of message, which I think is why so many advocacy groups engage in such dumb outreach. The idea that veganism isn't de facto healthier than omnivorism and that veganism isn't a guaranteed weight cure just isn't sexy and doesn't share well on facebook.

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 Post subject: Re: Why does 'plant based' always have to equal fat hate?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 1:50 pm 
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oh wow, this is horrible! And it sucks because I totally agree that those diet books are shitty, but so is Neal Barnard's 21 Day Kickstart.

And why is it low-carb vs vegan? that seems so arbitrary.

And if you go to the veg source site and read the facebook comments under the article it's really bad. :( I hate this stuff so much. I hope Ginny Messina tweets or blogs about it.

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 Post subject: Re: Why does 'plant based' always have to equal fat hate?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 2:00 pm 
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That video is douche-tastic. Would that persuade anyone??

Mat.

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 Post subject: Re: Why does 'plant based' always have to equal fat hate?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 2:02 pm 
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If they just showed pictures of a pie or a cake or cupcake, etc and then showed an identical picture and labeled them "vegan" and "not vegan," I feel like that would be more productive. Here's a non-vegan cake that everyone loves...oh and look, you can have it as a vegan, too! I don't know about anyone else but food usually wins in my battle of priorities.

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 Post subject: Re: Why does 'plant based' always have to equal fat hate?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 2:50 pm 
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With one exception that I know of people who use the term "plant based" are often mostly focused on "selling" a diet for health and slimming down first and ethical issues second, maybe. I agree, there does tend to be a bit of fat phobia ( both in food and on people ) among them. The negative attitude does hurt them as far as getting listened to.

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 Post subject: Re: Why does 'plant based' always have to equal fat hate?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 4:51 pm 
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supercarrot wrote:
i actually think the plant based people might look a little too gaunt


^ This. Surely the person who made this video could've found some vegans who don't like they're allergic to sunlight & exercise?


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 Post subject: Re: Why does 'plant based' always have to equal fat hate?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 5:24 pm 
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JimXVX wrote:
supercarrot wrote:
i actually think the plant based people might look a little too gaunt


^ This. Surely the person who made this video could've found some vegans who don't like they're allergic to sunlight & exercise?


Please see above re. not critiquing based on weight/size.

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 Post subject: Re: Why does 'plant based' always have to equal fat hate?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 5:50 pm 
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Wow. I wasn't expecting the video to be as terrible as it was. I'm not in the mood to watch this shiitake heap again, but I don't remember even one of the people looking fat.

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 Post subject: Re: Why does 'plant based' always have to equal fat hate?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 5:52 pm 
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jordanpattern wrote:
The problem with selling veganism is that essentially you're trying to sell people on the (unpopular) idea that their personal desires and tastes and appetites shouldn't trump the good of some larger group/entity (whether that's the animals, the environment, society at large, etc.). Most people just aren't going to be interested in that kind of message, which I think is why so many advocacy groups engage in such dumb outreach. The idea that veganism isn't de facto healthier than omnivorism and that veganism isn't a guaranteed weight cure just isn't sexy and doesn't share well on facebook.

I think that hits it right on. And the sad thing is, these groups are the ones getting attention. K. Freston was the one on the oprah show, right? No one too mainstream wants to interview a nice Jewish girl from Brooklyn who's been writing kick asparagus books for years, but if you put a marketing angle to it such as women losing weight, then they are sold. And I wonder how much they are selling veganism and how much they are just selling their books. it seems everyone and their mother has jumped this train on twitter and it's becoming more about look at me rather than look at the issues.
I feel like this happens in all social movements. Veganism has arrived when it's being bought and sold for global media conglomerates. I think the feminist and queer movements have had the same thing happen in years past.

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 Post subject: Re: Why does 'plant based' always have to equal fat hate?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 7:09 pm 
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matwinser wrote:
That video is douche-tastic. Would that persuade anyone??

Mat.

We'll just shove this video in the file labeled "douche-tastic things done in the name of veganism." If there's anymore room, that is.


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 Post subject: Re: Why does 'plant based' always have to equal fat hate?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 8:53 pm 
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What I really hate about those Plant Based, douche-tastic, no fat, judgmental people is that (a) a lot of their scientific and medical claims are sketchy at best and (b) if eating vegan is supposed to make you perfect, thin, and healthy then it's YOUR FAULT IF YOU ARE SICK AND NOT PERFECT. It's a horribly unethical way of looking at the world. I don't read their books or support them in any way. Period.

True facts about the world: terrible things happen to nice people, people who eat tons of veg and fruit get really sick and some of them die really young.

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 Post subject: Re: Why does 'plant based' always have to equal fat hate?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:18 pm 
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^^^^^^^^^ This is so freaking true. ^^^^^^^^

As is pandacookie's statement. I saw Dr Fuhrmann touting veganism as a crash diet on Dr. Oz and thought, what the hell are we coming to, that crash diets are ever okay, and that 2 supposed MDs would be endorsing them?

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 Post subject: Re: Why does 'plant based' always have to equal fat hate?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 5:39 am 
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Vantine wrote:
What I really hate about those Plant Based, douche-tastic, no fat, judgmental people is that (a) a lot of their scientific and medical claims are sketchy at best and (b) if eating vegan is supposed to make you perfect, thin, and healthy then it's YOUR FAULT IF YOU ARE SICK AND NOT PERFECT. It's a horribly unethical way of looking at the world. I don't read their books or support them in any way. Period.

True facts about the world: terrible things happen to nice people, people who eat tons of veg and fruit get really sick and some of them die really young.



Yes! Like a certain no fat author tweeting that there already was a cure for cancer, eating fruit and veg.

Mat.

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 Post subject: Re: Why does 'plant based' always have to equal fat hate?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 11:41 pm 
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matwinser wrote:
Vantine wrote:
What I really hate about those Plant Based, douche-tastic, no fat, judgmental people is that (a) a lot of their scientific and medical claims are sketchy at best and (b) if eating vegan is supposed to make you perfect, thin, and healthy then it's YOUR FAULT IF YOU ARE SICK AND NOT PERFECT. It's a horribly unethical way of looking at the world. I don't read their books or support them in any way. Period.

True facts about the world: terrible things happen to nice people, people who eat tons of veg and fruit get really sick and some of them die really young.



Yes! Like a certain no fat author tweeting that there already was a cure for cancer, eating fruit and veg.

Mat.


OH. REALLY.

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 Post subject: Re: Why does 'plant based' always have to equal fat hate?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 6:38 am 
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In the last two years I had two vegan friends die of cancer. I watched both of them deteriorate. They were both vegan for a long time before cancer became an issue, both of them were into taking care of themselves and both of them did all of the extreme alternative vegan miracle stuff in attempt to stay alive.

I got very upset with some new vegans on Facebook and various web boards who did not understand that "reduce risk of" really does mean "reduce", not "magic shield against". There was a tone to the effect that maybe my friends weren't vegan-enough.

It isn't only the authors advocating low fat whole plant food diets and it isn't all of those authors either. A good chunk of them do live on planet Earth too. My personal belief is that a lowER fat, mostly whole plant food diet is best for REDUCING risks of many diseases, but only reducing. No such thing as a magical shield.

Like someone else wrote, people who do everything they can to protect their health still get sick through no fault of their own.

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 Post subject: Re: Why does 'plant based' always have to equal fat hate?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:50 am 
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ijustdiedinside wrote:
And it sucks because I totally agree that those diet books are shitty, but so is Neal Barnard's 21 Day Kickstart.

Totally. Can the no-fat plant-based thing go away forever?!

ps...vegsource is weird.


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 Post subject: Re: Why does 'plant based' always have to equal fat hate?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:35 am 
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starrynight87 wrote:
matwinser wrote:
That video is douche-tastic. Would that persuade anyone??

Mat.

We'll just shove this video in the file labeled "douche-tastic things done in the name of veganism." If there's anymore room, that is.



But they aren't selling veganism, being plant-based is solely about personal health. Very few people who call themselves plant-based seem to actually care about animal rights (I politely flipped on someone on the Vegan Body Building forums for saying she's vegan but hunts and fishes with her family) or environment, and it doesn't mean you never eat things from animals. I don't know about Dr. Campbell, but I know Dr. Esselstyn and his son aren't vegan or even vegetarian all of the time, by their own admission. And do they use vegan home and personal products? If staying away from oil is going to "disease-proof" you, is it cool to rub paraben filled lotions all over your body? Is wearing leather cool since it doesn't hurt the person wearing it, even though leather production is horrible for the environment?

Also, these people can be incredibly rude. As much as I bisque here in general terms, I never go to anyone's 'plant-based' blog and tell them to eat some oil or nuts or cake or whatever. People can eat however they want. But I have seen plenty of people comment on recipe/here's my lunch posts with, "This has white flour/oil/nuts/seeds/gluten/soy so I won't make it because it's very unhealthy." Good for you? Pat on the back? And that's on the nicer end of things, i've seen much worse.

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 Post subject: Re: Why does 'plant based' always have to equal fat hate?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:54 am 
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mrsbadmouth wrote:
starrynight87 wrote:
matwinser wrote:
That video is douche-tastic. Would that persuade anyone??

Mat.

We'll just shove this video in the file labeled "douche-tastic things done in the name of veganism." If there's anymore room, that is.



But they aren't selling veganism, being plant-based is solely about personal health. Very few people who call themselves plant-based seem to actually care about animal rights (I politely flipped on someone on the Vegan Body Building forums for saying she's vegan but hunts and fishes with her family) or environment, and it doesn't mean you never eat things from animals. I don't know about Dr. Campbell, but I know Dr. Esselstyn and his son aren't vegan or even vegetarian all of the time, by their own admission. And do they use vegan home and personal products? If staying away from oil is going to "disease-proof" you, is it cool to rub paraben filled lotions all over your body? Is wearing leather cool since it doesn't hurt the person wearing it, even though leather production is horrible for the environment?

Also, these people can be incredibly rude. As much as I bisque here in general terms, I never go to anyone's 'plant-based' blog and tell them to eat some oil or nuts or cake or whatever. People can eat however they want. But I have seen plenty of people comment on recipe/here's my lunch posts with, "This has white flour/oil/nuts/seeds/gluten/soy so I won't make it because it's very unhealthy." Good for you? Pat on the back? And that's on the nicer end of things, i've seen much worse.


Yes, you are right. It is not even veganism at that stage. And my God, the commentators that feel the need to say "Ugh, this is processed crepe" make me want to sneak into their house and add extra oil to everything.

Mat.

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 Post subject: Re: Why does 'plant based' always have to equal fat hate?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 11:00 am 
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mrsbadmouth wrote:
But they aren't selling veganism, being plant-based is solely about personal health. Very few people who call themselves plant-based seem to actually care about animal rights (I politely flipped on someone on the Vegan Body Building forums for saying she's vegan but hunts and fishes with her family) or environment, and it doesn't mean you never eat things from animals. I don't know about Dr. Campbell, but I know Dr. Esselstyn and his son aren't vegan or even vegetarian all of the time, by their own admission. And do they use vegan home and personal products? If staying away from oil is going to "disease-proof" you, is it cool to rub paraben filled lotions all over your body? Is wearing leather cool since it doesn't hurt the person wearing it, even though leather production is horrible for the environment?

Also, these people can be incredibly rude. As much as I bisque here in general terms, I never go to anyone's 'plant-based' blog and tell them to eat some oil or nuts or cake or whatever. People can eat however they want. But I have seen plenty of people comment on recipe/here's my lunch posts with, "This has white flour/oil/nuts/seeds/gluten/soy so I won't make it because it's very unhealthy." Good for you? Pat on the back? And that's on the nicer end of things, i've seen much worse.


I posted on the other thread discussing the use of "plant-based" in vegan advocacy. I said there, and I will say it here...using the words "plant-based" can be disarming when you are reaching out to people, especially older people, who have all sorts of baggage attached to the word "vegan". I will use the term plant-based in a heartbeat if it will put someone at ease so that they will actually think about making a change to their diet. Lots of people start with the health-based aspect and change their diet, and move on to the ethical aspect.

That said, I am constantly battling low-fat, no-fat vegans in my vegan group. Also (and this is for another thread)...I battle with them about the fear of soy. It's awful.

I agree, that was a terrible video. Does anyone remember the runner Jim Fixx? He wrote the Joy of Running, which helped popularize running as a form of exercise in the US. He died of a heart attack while running. My take on that was that he lived longer and better than if he had never run at all. I try and tell people the same thing about going vegan...plus I let them know that going vegan spares animals' lives.

This has been a great discussion thread.


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 Post subject: Re: Why does 'plant based' always have to equal fat hate?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 11:23 am 
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The other thread was my thread and was supposed to be about Tina Turner, but that's unfortunately not always how the internet goes. Which is my big problem with plant based. Not enough Tina Turner.

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