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 Post subject: Re: Why does 'plant based' always have to equal fat hate?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 11:29 am 
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I don't know a lot of older people with baggage attached to the word 'vegan' because most of them don't know what it even means, and if they do they generally equate it only with diet, not the other aspects. I guess it depends on where you live/what you're exposed to, but most of my family has never met another vegan (and honestly, a lot of Brian's family doesn't know/realize that I don't eat dairy, the only people who consistently remember that I don't want the birthday cake are his mom and sister). Not to mention that they don't think of the non-food aspects. I don't think explaining plant-based is any easier than explaining veganism.

If any generation has baggage about the word vegan, it's younger people because of hipster bacon fetishizing and the internet.

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 Post subject: Re: Why does 'plant based' always have to equal fat hate?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 11:41 am 
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mrsbadmouth wrote:
I don't know a lot of older people with baggage attached to the word 'vegan' because most of them don't know what it even means...

Yeah, this was the case when I told my great-grandmother. She's an old Italian woman who barely speaks any English so I knew that she wouldn't know what a vegan was and just said to her, "I don't eat meat, dairy, or eggs." That was easy for her to understand and the only context she would need to know was what I eat.

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If any generation has baggage about the word vegan, it's younger people because of hipster bacon fetishizing and the internet.


I definitely, definitely agree with this. This has been the group that I've had the most problem with. You mention the "v" word anywhere on the internet and they instantly swarm to the comments box with, "Vegans are so stupid!!! What is wrong wit them???? Let me eat my steak! More baconzzzzzz for mee!!!!! If vegans want something that tastes like meat, why don't they just eat meat??? Stupid vegans!!!"

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 Post subject: Re: Why does 'plant based' always have to equal fat hate?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 11:41 am 
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Someone gave me a very clear distinction the other day. Plant-based diet/eaters are not vegans because they don't avoid animals in any other forms - animal testing, wearing leather, going to the circus etc. While vegans are against all exploitation of animals, not just food animals.

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 Post subject: Re: Why does 'plant based' always have to equal fat hate?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:01 pm 
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mrsbadmouth wrote:
starrynight87 wrote:
matwinser wrote:
That video is douche-tastic. Would that persuade anyone??

Mat.

We'll just shove this video in the file labeled "douche-tastic things done in the name of veganism." If there's anymore room, that is.



But they aren't selling veganism, being plant-based is solely about personal health. Very few people who call themselves plant-based seem to actually care about animal rights (I politely flipped on someone on the Vegan Body Building forums for saying she's vegan but hunts and fishes with her family) or environment, and it doesn't mean you never eat things from animals. I don't know about Dr. Campbell, but I know Dr. Esselstyn and his son aren't vegan or even vegetarian all of the time, by their own admission. And do they use vegan home and personal products? If staying away from oil is going to "disease-proof" you, is it cool to rub paraben filled lotions all over your body? Is wearing leather cool since it doesn't hurt the person wearing it, even though leather production is horrible for the environment?

The same thing could be said for McDougall. I don't know what he is saying now but I know that his early books discussed how the family feasted on turkey on Thanksgiving because they were "normal." Even back in the late 80's/early 90's he was selling his diet as a miracle cure for all that ails you. That is simply not the truth.

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 Post subject: Re: Why does 'plant based' always have to equal fat hate?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:30 pm 
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But not all people who call themselves plant based are eating a vegan diet. From what I can tell a lot of them eat a vegetarian diet and some also eat meat.
And not all people who are vegan pay attention to animal testing or stop going to the circus.

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 Post subject: Re: Why does 'plant based' always have to equal fat hate?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:37 pm 
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Can we have make a video of all sizes and shapes of different vegans with cheesy heart frames super-imposed on them? Mixed in can be pictures of veganized Double Downs and Sweet Chili Doritos followed by kale chips, stevia, and sprouts. And asparagus loads of cakes and cookies. And tofu.

I'm not really sure what purpose it would serve other than to make people who sterotype "plant-based" possibly explode from confusion. I'm going to go have a Cinnamon Chocolate Chip Espresso cookie now.


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 Post subject: Re: Why does 'plant based' always have to equal fat hate?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 1:20 pm 
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psst. not to be sgt. debbie downer from the 54th precinct, but sweet chili doritos probably have a pork-based flavoring in them. (it's possible it's changed, but way back when it came out, i called them, and the woman on the phone said if there isn't a kosher symbol on the bag, the flavoring is probably pork.)

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 Post subject: Re: Why does 'plant based' always have to equal fat hate?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 1:27 pm 
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supercarrot wrote:
psst. not to be sgt. debbie downer from the 54th precinct, but sweet chili doritos probably have a pork-based flavoring in them. (it's possible it's changed, but way back when it came out, i called them, and the woman on the phone said if there isn't a kosher symbol on the bag, the flavoring is probably pork.)


http://www.fritolay.com/your-health/us- ... zymes.html


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 Post subject: Re: Why does 'plant based' always have to equal fat hate?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 1:46 pm 
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Uggh, that was disturbing. Especially that sound effect when each person was labeled "fat" or "lean." And also that most of them were photos of people talking, with no hint at what they were actually saying. So it was like, "Who cares what kind of evidence this person has to back up their position, their body type alone tells you all you need to know about the validity of their views and value as a human being."


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 Post subject: Re: Why does 'plant based' always have to equal fat hate?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 2:10 pm 
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Tzippy wrote:
supercarrot wrote:
psst. not to be sgt. debbie downer from the 54th precinct, but sweet chili doritos probably have a pork-based flavoring in them. (it's possible it's changed, but way back when it came out, i called them, and the woman on the phone said if there isn't a kosher symbol on the bag, the flavoring is probably pork.)


http://www.fritolay.com/your-health/us- ... zymes.html

whoah!!!!!!!!!
now i can finally try them! thanks tzippy!

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 Post subject: Re: Why does 'plant based' always have to equal fat hate?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 6:00 pm 
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the video was puerile and dumb. i really wish i had not watched it. i also think this is a clear case of negative stereotyping (shaming). nevertheless, some of the comments about barnard and esselstyn are gossipy and catty. whether someone is 99.5% vegan or 98% vegan makes very little difference to me -- 1.5% difference to be precise.

Quote:
Plant-based diet/eaters are not vegans because they don't avoid animals in any other forms - animal testing, wearing leather, going to the circus etc. While vegans are against all exploitation of animals, not just food animals.


i disagree. imo, the venn diagram between plant-based and vegan has a large amount of overlap.


disclosure: formerly posted as "utilitarian".


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 Post subject: Re: Why does 'plant based' always have to equal fat hate?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 6:50 pm 
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I didn't say they aren't vegan to be catty - I said it because there IS a difference between being vegan and plant based. And it's true, from their mouths. Dr. Esselstyn has said he eats turkey at the holidays, his son has said he eats fish, and Dr. Campbell doesn't even like being called a vegetarian.

There are many facets to veganism, and while diet is a large part, it isn't even close to being the only one.

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 Post subject: Re: Why does 'plant based' always have to equal fat hate?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 7:43 pm 
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I like the term plant based a lot, in theory. In nutrition, that's one thing we're trying to get more people to do, eat more plant based foods. i think it's great that there are people eating plant based diets that aren't necessarily vegan. i totally agree that vegan means more than plant based. It sucks that people are using that term to push agendas like the one in this video, because that is obviously bullshiitake.

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 Post subject: Re: Why does 'plant based' always have to equal fat hate?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:30 pm 
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mrsbadmouth wrote:
I didn't say they aren't vegan to be catty -


+ 1

It is so difficult to have people simply understand that you are pointing out that the word isn't being used correctly and it isn't motivated by trying to tear some ego badge off of them.

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 Post subject: Re: Why does 'plant based' always have to equal fat hate?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:44 pm 
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mrsbadmouth wrote:
I didn't say they aren't vegan to be catty - I said it because there IS a difference between being vegan and plant based. And it's true, from their mouths. Dr. Esselstyn has said he eats turkey at the holidays, his son has said he eats fish, and Dr. Campbell doesn't even like being called a vegetarian.

There are many facets to veganism, and while diet is a large part, it isn't even close to being the only one.


Interesting post. Jeff Nelson, the founder and owner of Vegsource practically worships the people in the video. I wonder if he knows these things.

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 Post subject: Re: Why does 'plant based' always have to equal fat hate?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 12:33 am 
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Quote:
I said it because there IS a difference between being vegan and plant based


sometimes. while there are plant-based eaters who are not "vegan", all vegans are plant-based.


Quote:
Dr. Esselstyn has said he eats turkey at the holidays


i personally have no problem with someone who eats turkey once a year calling themselves vegan. i think its boring and unproductive to get hung up on 0.1%. your mileage may vary.


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 Post subject: Re: Why does 'plant based' always have to equal fat hate?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:07 am 
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unethical_vegan wrote:
Quote:
I said it because there IS a difference between being vegan and plant based


sometimes. while there are plant-based eaters who are not "vegan", all vegans are plant-based.

Quote:
Dr. Esselstyn has said he eats turkey at the holidays


i personally have no problem with someone who eats turkey once a year calling themselves vegan. i think its boring and unproductive to get hung up on 0.1%. your mileage may vary.


But Dr E is not using the word vegan, but plant based. Wasn't that the point of the argument? I don't think anyone was saying that once a year turkey person couldn't call themselves vegan (though I bet plenty would). But it is pretty rude to call people boring and unproductive because you think they have a different opinion than you.


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 Post subject: Re: Why does 'plant based' always have to equal fat hate?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 5:30 am 
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I have no interest in debating the definition of the word vegan and I don't care about vegan purity.

What is a concern is that these particular people are being embraced by vegans and use vegan news sources while pushing their dangerous, ridiculous, and scientifically unsound view of food and health. Veganism is not a miracle weight loss plan, you can consume fats and oils while maintaining a healthy body, and going low fat Vegan is not a guaranteed cure all.

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 Post subject: Re: Why does 'plant based' always have to equal fat hate?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 5:59 am 
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The video in the original post of this thread was produced by Jeff Nelson of Vegsource. Nelson owns Vegsource, it is his personal business. He reads and responds to comments on his youtube videos. Some of the comments in this thread are fairly good. I encourage people to repost them on youtube. You may just open Jeff Nelson's mind or at the least politiely teach him that not everyone appreciates the way he expresses his views.

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 Post subject: Re: Why does 'plant based' always have to equal fat hate?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 9:09 am 
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unethical_vegan wrote:
Quote:
I said it because there IS a difference between being vegan and plant based


sometimes. while there are plant-based eaters who are not "vegan", all vegans are plant-based.


Quote:
Dr. Esselstyn has said he eats turkey at the holidays


i personally have no problem with someone who eats turkey once a year calling themselves vegan. i think its boring and unproductive to get hung up on 0.1%. your mileage may vary.


I eat oil so I don't think I qualify for the plant based label, nor do I want to.

And they don't call themselves vegan. Stop making it out like i'm trying to insult them or be the vegan police by pointing out something that people admit freely and even try to push away from. I did not say anything like 'these crassholes aren't even vegan'.

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 Post subject: Re: Why does 'plant based' always have to equal fat hate?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 9:55 am 
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Technically, this group has co-opted the term plant-based. It's been used for a long time by health professionals to mean a diet heavy in produce, grains, and legumes, and light on meat, especially read meat. The original meaning doesn't even address oil.

I always feel very very conflicted about this subject. I know a huge number of people who have turned around their health with this diet, especially people who have put their type 2 diabetes in remission (it's remission, not a cure). But, I think the benefits of this diet are blown way out of proportion. The doctors associated with this movement frequently cherry pick evidence, or exaggerate the strength of evidence. And I hate the ugly attitude of saying things like "enjoy your heart attack" because a person refuses to stop eating meat. There's no diet in the world that can guarantee health.


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 Post subject: Re: Why does 'plant based' always have to equal fat hate?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 11:23 am 
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mrsbadmouth wrote:
I eat oil so I don't think I qualify for the plant based label, nor do I want to.

wait, what? so now oil isn't considered to be sourced from a plant? that's news to me. (of course not all oils are made from plants, but most are.)

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 Post subject: Re: Why does 'plant based' always have to equal fat hate?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 11:43 am 
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supercarrot wrote:
mrsbadmouth wrote:
I eat oil so I don't think I qualify for the plant based label, nor do I want to.

wait, what? so now oil isn't considered to be sourced from a plant? that's news to me. (of course not all oils are made from plants, but most are.)

Plant based is a movement based off of health; some plant based advocates are against consuming oil, even in small amounts.

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 Post subject: Re: Why does 'plant based' always have to equal fat hate?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 11:51 am 
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feh. i'll go off of kingdom definitions, thank you very much.
(this makes me think. do they avoid mushrooms? yeasts? probiotics?)

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 Post subject: Re: Why does 'plant based' always have to equal fat hate?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:27 pm 
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Vantine wrote:
I have no interest in debating the definition of the word vegan and I don't care about vegan purity.
What is a concern is that these particular people are being embraced by vegans and use vegan news sources while pushing their dangerous, ridiculous, and scientifically unsound view of food and health.


Imo, Barnard is fairly evidence-based...Esselstyn less so...while Fuhrman often goes off the deep end.



Quote:
Veganism is not a miracle weight loss plan, you can consume fats and oils while maintaining a healthy body, and going low fat Vegan is not a guaranteed cure all.


There is accumulating evidence that a balanced vegan diet is a good way to lose weight. I also think using this evidence to promote veganism is a smart thing to do.


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