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 Post subject: Re: Why does 'plant based' always have to equal fat hate?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:45 pm 
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Semen Strong
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Vantine wrote:
Ariann wrote:
Vantine wrote:
Only vegans on the internet care about the definition of vegan.


This is a rather strange thing to say. I am a vegan in real life and I really care about the definition of vegan. I care because I am so happy that there are more and more actually vegan options out there in the world and I want to be able to be a consumer in the real world and know what I'm buying. I don't want to buy "vegan" stuff that has fish in it or honey in it or milk in it or whatever, because I actually care about not consuming those things, not wearing those things, not putting those things on my face, etc., because I care about avoiding those things the same way I care about not committing willful harm to people. I also don't want people who are trying to be nice to me and take care of me to not get what that entails because they know 10 "vegans" who "eat fish occasionally." It's just forking annoying to constantly compete against that. In the same way when I was just kosher I wanted kosher to mean something, I want vegan to mean something. I don't really think that's so much to ask and even if language evolves, there are concepts that stay pretty much the same over long periods of time and there's nothing wrong with trying to create consistency in the use of a term, especially one that is used by so few people. I often say I'm "animal product free" if pressed, because people don't understand what vegan is even if they know tons of "vegans."

What I really mean is that most people out there in the world could care less about the minutae of the definition. Arguing about the use of the word itself doesn't seem to be really productive as far as I am concerned.


I agree that most people don't care less about the definition, because it doesn't impact them at all, but, as someone who identifies as a vegan, I do, for the same reasons Ariann puts forth very clearly. As a non-Jew, I don't care about the definition of Kosher, but if I were Jewish and committed to keeping Kosher, I would care which is why a rabbinic organization will inspect a location, clarify the standards and then certify certain locations. We need a vegan Rabbi!

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 Post subject: Re: Why does 'plant based' always have to equal fat hate?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 12:49 pm 
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Thinks Plants Have Feelings

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Quote:
are unaware of the dilution of the term


pure FUD. and link please.


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 Post subject: Re: Why does 'plant based' always have to equal fat hate?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 1:14 pm 
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Semen Strong
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unethical_vegan wrote:
supercarrot wrote:
it is also possible that vegans without access to the internet are unaware of the dilution of the term


pure FUD. and link please.


I don't think its FUD or needs a link. There may well be vegans without internet that never go out to eat in public places or buy prepared foods or goods and for them the dilution of the term is irrelevant. For anyone who interacts with the public (I'd wager the vast majority of vegans) - whether by buying goods, food or going out to eat - it helps to have a single agreed upon term, and for them the dilution is problematic. Even if they aren't debating it furiously, it impacts the things that are sold to them etc.

I think all of us have gotten to a work dinner and found that the caterer's idea of a good vegan plate is a selection of steamed veggies smothered in butter. And the reason that they think that is that the vegans before us have been willing to eat that plate.

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 Post subject: Re: Why does 'plant based' always have to equal fat hate?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 8:50 pm 
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ijustdiedinside wrote:
oh wow, this is horrible! And it sucks because I totally agree that those diet books are shitty, but so is Neal Barnard's 21 Day Kickstart.

And why is it low-carb vs vegan? that seems so arbitrary.

And if you go to the veg source site and read the facebook comments under the article it's really bad. :( I hate this stuff so much. I hope Ginny Messina tweets or blogs about it.

Not to go back to the topic of the thread but IJDI, did Ginny ever give an clue as to whether or not she would blog about this?

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 Post subject: Re: Why does 'plant based' always have to equal fat hate?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 11:28 pm 
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unethical_vegan wrote:
Quote:
are unaware of the dilution of the term


pure FUD. and link please.

She said its possible they are unaware.


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 Post subject: Re: Why does 'plant based' always have to equal fat hate?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 4:53 pm 
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Thinks Plants Have Feelings

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in the context of the stereotyping of health/plant-based vegans that has occurred i stand by my fud call. why the need to talk about hypothetical dilution without a real world example? in the 80s the majority of vegans (that i knew) were sprouty BOey health-nut vegans. and you should have seen the shiitake i used to get for having a cupboard full of jif and love burger mix. in my experience, whole food/health vegans tend to be far more obsessesive about purity with a capital P than the recent crop of (punky/SE/tatooed) ARish vegans. if you think i am FOS perhaps you should re-read the clinical way esselstyn described his decades long committment to a "plant-based" diet. i can assure you that Dr CE has not had many taco hell burritos at airports. and i can almost certainly assure that if Dr. CE received a burrito with cheese he would not shrug, scrape out the cheese, and eat.


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 Post subject: Re: Why does 'plant based' always have to equal fat hate?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 6:22 pm 
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unethical_vegan wrote:
Quote:
are unaware of the dilution of the term


pure FUD. and link please.

i think it's funny that you're asking for a link to proof when the "theoretical" subjects i was mentioning are people who don't have access to the internet.

(or are you referring to dilution itself? fine. and please, in the future, be more clear about what you are debating, also, please include peoples' names in their quotes. you don't have to form the quotes yourself, they'll happen when you hit the quote button at the bottom right of each person's post.)

a vegetarian restaurant that serves mostly fish: http://www.allmenus.com/nj/cherry-hill/ ... rian/menu/

as for the dilution of vegan, it's happening. (the great honey debate, for example. that, i think we can all agree, doesn't need a link, due to it's pervasiveness.)

in 2005, i went to a pizza place that advertised vegan pizza. (yet, it was not vegan. it was made with "soy cheese" that had casein in it. either the cheese salesperson was lying, or the restaurant was lying, or it was a big mistake. but it was advertised as vegan, so i ate it. (it taught me to ask every single restaurant which brand of vegan cheese they use. that shouldn't have to be.)

after i learned to ask, i came across a little cafe near my house was offering non-vegan cheese to their vegan customers (in a menu item that was titled vegan) i spoke to them, and they now proudly use teese.

if people call themselves vegan, and continue to eat clearly non-vegan stuff, then their friends and family (who might run restaurants) will assume that's what the definition of vegan means. they might not do it maliciously, but i'm positive it happens.

i am not talking about hardcore vegans here. they know what the definition is, and aren't swayed by other peoples' incorrect use of the term. i'm talking about n00bs who are struggling or those teens that use the word to look cool, but don't actually eat vegan. or those people who are technically "almost vegan" but don't bother to use the qualifier "almost". they are affecting the definition as carried out by people who don't do further research. as "word of mouth" type of stuff.

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