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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 12:17 pm 
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IsaChandra wrote:
Veglicious wrote:
Fee wrote:
Man, I'd be totally nervous about going through one while pregnant.

Yeah really. I know I just said that I don't really care but I would like to know that it is safe.

You can get the pat down if your preggers, right?

I guess I don't see this as a violation of privacy because they're doing it to everyone. It seems like a good alternative to the rampant racial profiling. Plus, most people don't have to fly. When I fly I realize that I give up my soul, and it's ok since it's such a privilege in the first place.

I thought it was "random"? My impression was that there are only one (maybe two machines) at every airport and they pull people out of the metal detector line to go through the xray machines.

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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 12:20 pm 
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Well, maybe I don't know what I'm talking about. I want my xray!

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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 12:21 pm 
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Transgender people who have genitals that don't "match" what someone's expecting to see (on the scanner) or feel (in the pat-down) could be subject to further harassment/humiliation.

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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 12:23 pm 
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That's true! But I feel that is a societal ill rather than something specific to this.

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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 12:24 pm 
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IsaChandra wrote:
I guess I don't see this as a violation of privacy because they're doing it to everyone. It seems like a good alternative to the rampant racial profiling.


This is exactly what I was about to post. That the potential good of these machines is that everyone gets treated the same way.

The body outline doesn't bother me, people just look like mannequins. But I respect that people are uncomfortable with that. Maybe keep the old metal detecotrs and have a special line for those people?

As far as the radiation, I understand there are mixed reviews. But not enough for me to be scared of it.


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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 12:44 pm 
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it's not just an outline though, it's full on nudity. you can even see genitals. now, personally, i'm not that upset about a stranger seeing me that way, but surely you can see how those affected by sexual abuse, those who are modest for religious or other reasons would feel completely violated by something like this. and when your only other option is a very thorough groping by a stranger, it gets pretty sketchy.

when you add in the fact that there is additional exposure to radiation which some doctors/scientists are calling a legitimate health concern and that they are still "randomly" choosing people to go through the additional screening (therefore racial profiling is still at play) then i don't think this is a minor issue at all.

i mean, it's one thing if this is on my way to an extravagant beach holiday in the Caribbean, but lots of people fly for work, to see family, for funerals, i.e. not completely optional trips.

In case anyone is interested, children under 12 are exempt, but once they turn 13, it's naked x-ray time! or you know, pat-down by total stranger.

http://www.aclu.org/technology-and-libe ... y-scanners
http://gizmodo.com/5501485/airport-empl ... a-coworker (stupid article, but legit concern)


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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 12:50 pm 
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littlebird wrote:
In case anyone is interested, children under 12 are exempt, but once they turn 13, it's naked x-ray time! or you know, pat-down by total stranger.

http://www.aclu.org/technology-and-libe ... y-scanners
http://gizmodo.com/5501485/airport-empl ... a-coworker (stupid article, but legit concern)


Yes, the child issue I just read about. In the UK, under-18's are exempt. Violated child pornography laws.

Does anyone have a link on the "random" screening. My understanding was that everyone had to go through the machine. Or that once there was enough machines, that would be the goal.


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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 12:56 pm 
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IsaChandra wrote:
I guess I don't see this as a violation of privacy because they're doing it to everyone.

What?

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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 1:24 pm 
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just mumbles wrote:
IsaChandra wrote:
I guess I don't see this as a violation of privacy because they're doing it to everyone.

What?

You know what I mean! Read the rest of my sentence.

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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 1:43 pm 
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IsaChandra wrote:
You know what I mean! Read the rest of my sentence.

I did read it? I think it's crazy?

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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 1:45 pm 
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choirqueer wrote:
Transgender people who have genitals that don't "match" what someone's expecting to see (on the scanner) or feel (in the pat-down) could be subject to further harassment/humiliation.


IsaChandra wrote:
That's true! But I feel that is a societal ill rather than something specific to this.


But racial profiling is also borne of the societal ill of anti-Muslim sentiment--and you just argued against racial profiling.

Also, from all the firsthand accounts I've read, those who've opted for pat-downs haven't held up everyone else in line. They've only delayd themselves. Unless someone knows something to the contrary?

LIke others have said, I too am resigned to having lost my privacy a long time ago--but I'm still not okay with the amount of power TSA has.

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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 2:23 pm 
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tinglepants! wrote:
choirqueer wrote:
Transgender people who have genitals that don't "match" what someone's expecting to see (on the scanner) or feel (in the pat-down) could be subject to further harassment/humiliation.


IsaChandra wrote:
That's true! But I feel that is a societal ill rather than something specific to this.


But racial profiling is also borne of the societal ill of anti-Muslim sentiment--and you just argued against racial profiling.

Also, from all the firsthand accounts I've read, those who've opted for pat-downs haven't held up everyone else in line. They've only delayd themselves. Unless someone knows something to the contrary?

LIke others have said, I too am resigned to having lost my privacy a long time ago--but I'm still not okay with the amount of power TSA has.

Yes but racial profiling is part of policy so it's different than something that might happen from a forked up individual. If it's policy to fork with people that are transgendered that's a different story. I don't care about holding people up in line, I wasn't arguing against that.

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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 2:29 pm 
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PS I don't have anything invested in this. I just am resigned to giving up a lot of freedom to the big police state in the sky when I fly. That's really all. Even if it is triggering and awful for the time being. As long as when I land safely on the other side!

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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 2:40 pm 
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I know you weren't arguing against holidng up the line--that wasn't in direct response to you. I just meant it as a clarification for everyone else who's participating in this discussion--if the main concern is that of holdin gup the line, then it's probably a null concern.

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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 2:43 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 2:46 pm 
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IsaChandra wrote:
Yes but racial profiling is part of policy so it's different than something that might happen from a forked up individual.

Racial profiling isn't policy for the TSA.

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PS I don't have anything invested in this. I just am resigned to giving up a lot of freedom to the big police state in the sky when I fly. That's really all. Even if it is triggering and awful for the time being. As long as when I land safely on the other side!

This just reeks of privilege--do you know how many people don't have the luxury of landing safely on the other side?

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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 2:49 pm 
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Nebraskalaska wrote:
they pull people out of the metal detector line to go through the xray machines.


Depending on who they want to see naked.

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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 3:01 pm 
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As a never nude I am terrified of this and have been for months.

The probability of dying from radiation from a body scanner and that of being killed in a terror attack are roughly the same, he said. About one in 30 million.

On Reddit they said the best way to avoid the scanner, if they are "randomly" selecting people to go through body scanners, is to stand behind a girl, because girls will always get picked http://www.reddit.com/r/reddit.com/comm ... _it_today/

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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 4:15 pm 
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P.S. I think this Johnny Edge guy is obnoxious and not the most reliable source (yeah, his phone recorded him antagonizing TSA staff)--there have to be some better sources?

ETA: I think he's reliable in that he's telling the truth--but beginning with the phrase, "you touch my junk and I'll have you arrested" only gives fodder to those who support the TSA's actions to say, "yeah, you're just being belligerent."

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Last edited by tinglepants! on Mon Nov 15, 2010 7:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 4:46 pm 
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brian wrote:
I fully support this, even though I'm not flying commercially anytime soon. The TSA is getting out of control. Every air carrier passenger is not a terrorist. The TSA have yet to even catch a terrorist. These advanced imaging devices are more harmful than the TSA will admit they are, and they need more testing and evaluation. The intense groping of every passenger who opts out of exposing themselves to these advanced scanners is a serious invasion of privacy.

And we can opt out all we want, but it won't change anything. The TSA does not answer to the passengers. If we want things to change, we need to stop flying. The aviation industry is kind of hurting right now as it is. Loss of ticket sales is the only thing that is going to motivate them to lobby congress to reign in the TSA. At this point, it probably won't take much because air carrier unions are already encouraging their members to opt out.

EDIT: Not that I don't think Opt Out Day won't send a message. It almost definitely will! But a loss in ticket sales will send a stronger message to more powerful entities.



Yes, I completely agree with every word you said. I am definitely not flying until they sort this shiitake out.


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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 5:37 pm 
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Fee wrote:
The images aren't saved, so I don't think they'll be leaked...I mean, do they leak x-rays of celebrities' luggage? I would think that would be more interesting than some maybe-nudity.


Of course they can be saved! And they have been, already, despite the plaintive denials when all this was first being talked about that these machines can't even save images and how dare you even suggest such a thing!

http://news.cnet.com/8301-31921_3-20012583-281.html

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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 6:38 pm 
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I understand that some, maybe many, people don't have a problem with the pictures or pat-downs, and that it's another example of the diminishing right to privacy. But things like this happen so easily because this seemingly small, harmless intrusions into that right happen and people don't think too much of it. I feel the need to stand up against this bc, if I don't and if more people don't, then the government will just continue to intrude more and more, slowly but surely, as they already do.

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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 7:25 pm 
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The guy who recorded his TSA run-in with his phone volunteered to go through the standard metal detector that most of the people were being sent through. But by then it was too late: he had already defied the tyrants, and they had no choice but to exercise their dominance.

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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 7:42 pm 
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IsaChandra wrote:
I guess I don't see this as a violation of privacy because they're doing it to everyone.

Yes, everyone... including people with severe eating disorders... body dysmorphia disorder... who have embarrassing marks on their body...

It's better to do something to everyone than to be racist about it, but honestly, if they were, for example, filming EVERYONE in their shower instead of just black people, that would still be a violation of privacy. In my book.

Just my opinion. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2010 7:44 pm 
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Except that, as someone else pointed out, they're not putting everyone through the advanced imaging scanners and intense pat-downs. They're picking people at "random" which means people with brown skin, hot girls, and anyone else they feel like harassing at the time. It's not making anyone safer. It's just violating people's privacy for the sake of security theater.


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