| Register  | FAQ  | Search | Login 
It is currently Wed Oct 01, 2014 12:27 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 41 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Daniel Tosh is a crasshole, The Onion is worse.
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 3:14 pm 
Offline
Memorized Veganomicon

Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2010 9:35 pm
Posts: 93
Tofulish wrote:
greenie wrote:
As a woman, I never quite got what people meant when they said "rape culture"...I did a little but not completely. I guess until I saw this...how interesting that even amongst intelligent and sensitive people, when describing a gangrape against a woman it's "gangrape" but against a man it's "a painful anal gangrape". I'm pretty sure gangrape ( or any type for forks sake ) would be painful, vaginal or anal, woman or man....why attach the word "painful" only when we're talking about a guy? Like it's somehow worse if it happens to a man. It's not worse. It's awful no matter what.


If you read the two accounts (and I wish I hadn't), as MBM says, the Onion goes into a great deal of detail about how painful it is. It is the core of the piece - sentence after sentence of painful. gory and horrible detail. I absolutely agree with you that rape under any circumstances is painful, but in this case, my word choice was based on the content of the two pieces.

I see. Thanks for not taking offense at my using your post as an example.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Daniel Tosh is a crasshole, The Onion is worse.
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 4:40 pm 
Offline
Semen Strong
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 7:10 pm
Posts: 19089
Location: Cliffbar NJ
No, thanks for the conversation. Its always useful to look how we speak things. Its a tangent from this thread, but I don't know if I agree with your general point - I think that gang rape in prison for example is really disregarded and no one takes the time to attach the word painful, but there again you are dealing with a really marginalized population, and no one really seems to care much about how prisoners are subjected to sexual unsafety as a matter of course in the US.

I thought this report was useful (trigger warning obvs)
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=19108&hilit=prison+rape

_________________
My oven is bigger on the inside, and it produces lots of wibbly wobbly, cake wakey... stuff. - The PoopieB.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Daniel Tosh is a crasshole, The Onion is worse.
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 4:44 pm 
Offline
Level 7 Vegan
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2010 1:15 am
Posts: 1534
Wow, I'm pissed. I found a clip of Tosh.0 where Tosh makes jokes about a video of a kid getting sexually assaulted. How is he allowed on TV??

_________________
"One time I meant to send a potential employer a resume, but I accidentally sent them a bucket of puke!

So embarrassing!" -just mumbles


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Daniel Tosh is a crasshole, The Onion is worse.
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 4:52 pm 
Offline
Semen Strong
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 7:10 pm
Posts: 19089
Location: Cliffbar NJ
Jigglypuff wrote:
Wow, I'm pissed. I found a clip of Tosh.0 where Tosh makes jokes about a video of a kid getting sexually assaulted. How is he allowed on TV??


I feel like kids are more and more inured to sexual assault, through videos and perhaps porn etc.

A friend of mine has a 13 year old, and in looking at their FB pages she said she was shocked that the boys use the term "I'd rape that" and "rape that asparagus" in comments on the pictures of the girls. She said its so weird because they are all so young and polite whenever she meets them, and knowing their moms, she wouldn't have expected that they would not realize how troubling their use of language is.

Its interesting, but NPR had an article about how sexual violence in bullying and hazing is on the rise - kids get bullied and then when its their turn to be the bullies, they ramp up the sexual violence, so its a spiral effect.
http://www.npr.org/2012/05/06/152150387 ... s-scrutiny

_________________
My oven is bigger on the inside, and it produces lots of wibbly wobbly, cake wakey... stuff. - The PoopieB.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Daniel Tosh is a crasshole, The Onion is worse.
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 8:50 pm 
Offline
Fair trade, organic mistletoe
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 12:52 am
Posts: 3507
Location: Toronto
Tofulish wrote:
A friend of mine has a 13 year old, and in looking at their FB pages she said she was shocked that the boys use the term "I'd rape that" and "rape that asparagus" in comments on the pictures of the girls. She said its so weird because they are all so young and polite whenever she meets them, and knowing their moms, she wouldn't have expected that they would not realize how troubling their use of language is.

This made me cry.

As a survivor myself and as someone who has spent the last three years working with survivors I am so forking outraged and saddened I can't even begin to verbalize it. And yet I still have to make my case for the existence of god-damned rape culture.

I hate the world, I hate the patriarchy, and I forking hate Daniel Tosh, The Onion*, and all rape-denialists and defenders.

*I have not and will not read that piece. I hear graphic accounts daily, I don't need to add a satirical(?) account to my daily list of horrors.

_________________
"I'd rather have dried catshit! I'd rather have astroturf! I'd rather have an igloo!"~Isa

"But really, anyone willing to dangle their baby in front of a crocodile is A-OK in my book."~SSD


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Daniel Tosh is a crasshole, The Onion is worse.
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 9:23 pm 
Online
rowdily playing checkers
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 2:53 pm
Posts: 3001
I thought this was a pretty good take on the whole affair:

http://jezebel.com/5925186/how-to-make-a-rape-joke

And much funnier than Daniel Tosh has ever been in his life.

_________________
"Tits are inconsequential, but someone pass me that kitten" ~ papayapaprikás


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Daniel Tosh is a crasshole, The Onion is worse.
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 9:49 pm 
Offline
Spent a night at the Bates Motel
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 8:31 pm
Posts: 2115
Location: detroit, mi
just mumbles wrote:
I thought this was a pretty good take on the whole affair:

http://jezebel.com/5925186/how-to-make-a-rape-joke

And much funnier than Daniel Tosh has ever been in his life.


Is the joke that the link doesn't work?

_________________
I'm still buddhist & I still love cupcakes.
My crochet blog! http://threadbythreadzen.blogspot.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Daniel Tosh is a crasshole, The Onion is worse.
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 9:51 pm 
Online
WELFARIST!
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2010 8:03 pm
Posts: 5255
Location: Gallifrey
dakini wrote:
just mumbles wrote:
I thought this was a pretty good take on the whole affair:

http://jezebel.com/5925186/how-to-make-a-rape-joke

And much funnier than Daniel Tosh has ever been in his life.


Is the joke that the link doesn't work?

It works. Text under cut:
Spoiler: show
How to Make a Rape Joke
Lindy West
Hello, precious flowers. I know it's been a difficult couple days for all of us, what with certain people interrupting certain other people (so rude!) and certain other people suggesting that said interruptors deserve to be hilariously gang-raped (so edgy!). In case you're not caught up: comedian Daniel Tosh made some rape jokes at the Laugh Factory in Hollywood, a female audience member informed him that "rape jokes are never funny," in retribution Tosh said it would be hilarious if she were gang-raped right there in the club, then Twitter went forking nuts. If you want more information, just google "UUUUUUUUUUUUUUGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHH" and click on whatever.
At this point, the conversation has devolved into two polarized camps: outraged feminists arguing that "rape jokes are never funny," and defensive comics wailing about how the "thought police" is "silencing" them. (The owner of the Laugh Factory disputes the account, explaining that Tosh made a rape "comment" and not a rape "joke," but that's pretty much irrelevant to the larger point here.) Here's the problem: everybody is wrong. I actually agree with Daniel Tosh's sentiment in his shitty back-pedaling tweet ("The point I was making before I was heckled is there are awful things in the world but you can still make jokes about them #deadbabies"). The world is full of terrible things, including rape, and it is okay to joke about them. But the best comics use their art to call bullshiitake on those terrible parts of life and make them better, not worse. The key—unless you want to be called a garbage-flavored dick on the internet by me and other humans with souls and brains—is to be a responsible person when you construct your jokes. Since the nuances of personal responsibility seem to escape so many people, let's go through it. Let's figure out rape jokes.

Male comics: this is not an issue of your oppression. You guys know that "thought police" isn't a real thing, right? (I mean, not anymore—it was the first thing to go in the recession.) At no point in time will some shimmery grandpa-of-the-future say, ‎"When I was your age, Timmy, we had these things called 'jokes.' But then they came for our rape humor and our racism, so comedy died and chuckles were abolished." I'm pretty sure there are a couple of jokes out there that don't involve a lady getting raped. Like 100 at least! Hooray, comedy is saved! Nobody is taking away your right to talk about rape, make jokes about rape, or use the word "rape." No cunty feminist killjoy is citizen's-arresting you and taking you to brain jail for your shitty rape joke.

It's unlikely but, say, after all this public outrage, Daniel Tosh actually does get fired from Comedy Central. A person being removed from a position of power at a private company (Comedy Central is not the U.S. government, FYI) after the public speaks up is not an affront to freedom—it is integral to freedom. If you make things that people do not like, people might stop buying your product. That's the deal.

In case this isn't perfectly clear yet: You can say whatever you want.

You can say whatever you want. You can say whatever you want. You can say whatever you want.

You can say whatever you want.

That said, a comedy club is not some sacred space. It's a guy with a microphone standing on a stage that's only one foot above the ground. And the flip-side of that awesome microphone power you have—wow, you can seriously say whatever you want!—is that audiences get to react to your words however we want. The defensive refrains currently echoing around the internet are, "You just don't get it—comedians need freedom. That's how comedy gets made. If you don't want to be offended, then stay out of comedy clubs." (Search for "comedians," "freedom," "offended," and "comedy clubs" on Twitter if you don't believe me.) You're exactly right. That is how comedy gets made. So CONSIDER THIS YOUR forking FEEDBACK. Ninety percent of your rape material is not working, and you can tell it's not working because your audience is telling you that they hate those jokes. This is the feedback you asked for.

If people don't want to be offended, they shouldn't go to comedy clubs? Maybe. But if you don't want people to react to your jokes, you shouldn't get on stage and tell your jokes to people.

This fetishization of not censoring yourself, of being an "equal-opportunity offender," is bizarre and bad for comedy. When did "not censoring yourself" become a good thing? We censor ourselves all the time, because we are not entitled, sociopathic forks. Your girlfriend is censoring herself when she says she's okay with you playing Xbox all day. In a way, comedy is censoring yourself—comedy is picking the right words to say to make people laugh. A comic who doesn't censor himself is just a dude yelling. And being an "equal opportunity offender"—as in, "It's okay, because Daniel Tosh makes fun of ALL people: women, men, AIDS victims, dead babies, gay guys, blah blah blah"—falls apart when you remember (as so many of us are forced to all the time) that all people are not in equal positions of power. "Oh, don't worry—I punch everyone in the face! People, baby ducks, a lion, this Easter Island statue, the ocean…" Okay, well that baby duck is dead now. And you're a duck-murderer. It's really easy to believe that "nothing is sacred" when the sanctity of your body and your freedom are never legitimately threatened.

According to the CDC, one in four female college students report that they've been sexually assaulted (and when you consider how many rapes go unreported, because of the way we shame victims and trivialize rape, the actual number is almost certainly much higher). That means that if you're a comic performing to a reasonably full room, there's a pretty good chance that at least one person in the audience has been sexually assaulted. If you didn't know that, fine, now you do. Congrats. So when you make a joke in that room that trivializes rape or mocks rape victims, you are deliberately (because now you know!) harming those people. On purpose. Not because you're a rapist—you're probably not—but because you're selfish and amateurish and lazy and scared.

The reason that "rape jokes" become such a contentious issue as opposed to, say, "cancer jokes" or "dead baby jokes" (yawn) is because rape is different from other horrors in some very specific ways.

Say you knew for a fact that in any given audience there was at least one person who had been mangled in an industrial threshing accident—JUST STICK WITH ME HERE—and that we lived in a culture where industrial threshing victims were routinely blamed/shamed for their own death and/or disfigurement because they wore the "wrong" overalls, and people were afraid to report threshing accidents because the police department just employs a bunch of threshing machines in badges and little hats anyway (and everyone knows threshing machines protect their own), and historically humans were sold into marriages with threshing machines where they could just be tossed in there and chopped up willy-nilly. Oh, and also 90% of the comics in the show (yourself included) are threshing machines too, but since you're this young, liberal brand of threshing machine with newfangled safety guards and you fervently don't believe in mangling humans, you think it's fair game for you to make "jokes" about idiot humans getting their faces and limbs shredded by those more sinister other threshing machines. But do you really think that isn't going to traumatize the fork out of some humans? Even if you're "joking"? If you care so much about humans not getting threshed to death, then wouldn't you rather just stick with, I don't know, your new material on barley chaff (hey, learn to drive, barley chaff!)?

Part of progress is constantly reevaluating yourself and owning up to your shiitake. Here, I'll start. I made a rape joke once and I genuinely regret it. Two years ago, in my review of Sex and the City 2, I wrote:

SATC2 takes everything that I hold dear as a woman and as a human—working hard, contributing to society, not being an entitled croissant like it's my job—and rapes it to death with a stiletto that costs more than my car.

I chose "rape" on purpose at the time—because it's gendered and jarring and I wanted to convey the severity of my disgust, as a woman, with that forking garbage movie. But if I wrote that review today, would I write it the same way? Nope. I would probably write "bludgeoned." Because right now, as I see it, there is no systematic cultural influence that leads to the mass bludgeoning of people. I would not be contributing to a culture of bludgeoning. I, Lindy West, am sorry.

So, comics. This doesn't mean that everyone is obligated to be the savior of mankind. You can be edgy and creepy and offensive and trivial and, yes, you can talk about rape. Doing comedy in front of a silent room is scary, and shocking people is a really easy way to get a reaction. But if you want people to not hate you (and wanting to not be hated is not the same thing as wanting to be liked), you should probably try and do it in a responsible, thoughtful way. Easy shortcut: DO NOT MAKE RAPE VICTIMS THE BUTT OF THE JOKE.

Here are four "rape jokes" that, in my opinion, work:

1. Borat


"In Kazakhstan the favorite hobbies are disco dancing, archery, rape, and table tennis."

Okay. Why is that funny? Who is the butt of the joke? Rape victims? Nah, I'd say that the butt of that joke is Kazakhstan, or, at least, the caricature of Kazakhstan that Sasha Baron Cohen has constructed—a borderline-medieval old world racist mud-hole. He's satirizing the casual misogyny of a certain set of crusty old anti-Semitic post-Soviet eastern European men in stinky suits. And I have no problem with that. Though I could be wrong! Again: no such thing as joke police! Culture evolves! Hooray! (This joke is almost certainly offensive to Kazakhs, but someone else can be in charge of the anti-Kazakh-joke manifesto.)

[Update: As several smart people have pointed out, I missed something obvious in my reading here. The point of Borat is that he gives people the opportunity to expose their own prejudices—the fact that anyone is willing to take this character seriously is extremely telling. Duh.]

2. Louis CK


"I'm not condoning rape, obviously—you should never rape anyone. Unless you have a reason, like if you want to fork somebody and they won't let you."

Here's why this joke doesn't make me feel like shiitake: Louis CK has spent 20 years making it very publicly clear that he is on the side of making things better. The oppressors never win at the end of his jokes. That's why it's easy to give him the benefit of the doubt that this joke is making fun of rapists—specifically the absurd and horrific sense of entitlement that accompanies taking over someone else's body like you're hungry and it's a delicious hoagie. The point is, only a forking psychopath would think like that, and the simplicity of the joke lays that bare. That said, Louis CK is possibly the greatest comic in the world, but that does not mean that he is always right. I think even Louis CK would tell you that. And I guarantee you he puts himself and his audience through at least this level of scrutiny on every joke. That's why the jokes are good.

3. John Mulaney


"Late at night, on the street, women will see me as a threat. That is funny—yeah! That is funny. It's kind of flattering in its own way, but at the same time it's weird because, like, I'm still afraid of being kidnapped."

Comedians are just people telling stories about the world, and it is okay to laugh at horror and talk candidly about ugliness. This is one of the best "rape jokes" ever, because it's an honest commentary on our fucked-up cultural climate. The butt of the joke is John Mulaney. The woman running away from John Mulaney is not being mocked. This is a joke about how scary it is to be a woman and how easy it is for men to be oblivious. This joke is helpful.

4. Ever Mainard


"The problem is that every woman in her entire life has that one moment when you think, 'Oh! Here's my rape!'"

Pretty simple: This isn't a joke about women getting raped—it's a joke about the way that rape culture, which includes rape jokes, makes women feel. It's like the difference between a black comic telling a joke about how it feels to have white people treat you like you're stupid all the time vs. a white comic telling a joke about how stupid black people are.

So there you go. See? Nobody is saying that you can't talk about rape. Just be a forking decent person about it or relinquish the moral high ground and be okay with making the world worse.

I'm not a comic, but I've done comedy (and told jokes I regret), I've lived with comics, I've dated comics, I write jokes for a living, and I've had both transcendent and crushing experiences in comedy clubs. I'm not saying all of this because I hate comedy—I'm saying it because I love comedy and I want comedy to be accessible to everyone. And right now, comedy as a whole is overtly hostile toward women. I remember the (brief) vicarious thrill I felt the first time I saw Anthony Jeselnik say abusive things with shameless cheer, and I was an Adam Carolla and Howard Stern apologist for years. I get it. But I'm a grown-up now, I'm slightly sheepish about my younger self, and I'd wager that in 15 years most of the rape-joke apologists will be embarrassed that this conversation even happened.

_________________
"...anarchists only want to burn cars and punch cops."- nickvicious
"We'll be eating our own words 30 years from now when we're demanding our legislators outlaw aerosol-based cyber dildo-wielding death holograms."- Brian


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Daniel Tosh is a crasshole, The Onion is worse.
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 9:58 pm 
Offline
Bathes in Braggs
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 8:03 pm
Posts: 1332
Location: Denver
just mumbles wrote:
I thought this was a pretty good take on the whole affair:

http://jezebel.com/5925186/how-to-make-a-rape-joke

And much funnier than Daniel Tosh has ever been in his life.


I was all, "This girl writes like Lindy West!" And then I realized it was Lindy West. She's the best. And I think she hits the nail on the head in this case.

_________________
my roommate spilled tuna juice on the bathroom floor while he was eating on the toilet! should i bleach the floor or just tear up the tile? - acr
Vegan Coloradical


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Daniel Tosh is a crasshole, The Onion is worse.
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 10:04 pm 
Offline
Nailed to the V

Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 8:19 pm
Posts: 547
Location: Sacred City, California
Jigglypuff wrote:
Wow, I'm pissed. I found a clip of Tosh.0 where Tosh makes jokes about a video of a kid getting sexually assaulted. How is he allowed on TV??


Oh, it gets 'better'--the video was posted on his Comedy Central page! Under the cut you'll find a graphic and very triggering link to Feminist Armchair Regime's description of the video and a link to Tosh's douchetacular response to it (however, you have to view the video and give this cockbag the attention he craves). fork this guy and those who defend him.

Spoiler: show
http://feminist-armchair-regime.blogspot.com/2012/07/shows-rape-of-teen-boy-that-tosh-showed.html


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Daniel Tosh is a crasshole, The Onion is worse.
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 10:17 pm 
Online
WELFARIST!
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2010 8:03 pm
Posts: 5255
Location: Gallifrey
SassyOh wrote:
Spoiler: show
http://feminist-armchair-regime.blogspot.com/2012/07/shows-rape-of-teen-boy-that-tosh-showed.html

I'm really disgusted by the fact that there are people in the comments section of this post, defending that video. Apparently someone has to be crying or screaming or whatever to have their sexual assault and/or rape legitimized. It's a case of the, "If people don't act the way I think they should act then it didn't really happen." This is especially important considering this is a video of a sexual assault committed by a young man (teen?)/group of young men on another young man...do they really expect a young man to react the same way that maybe another rape situation would cause? Especially after it was posted to youtube.

_________________
"...anarchists only want to burn cars and punch cops."- nickvicious
"We'll be eating our own words 30 years from now when we're demanding our legislators outlaw aerosol-based cyber dildo-wielding death holograms."- Brian


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Daniel Tosh is a crasshole, The Onion is worse.
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 11:14 pm 
Offline
Level 7 Vegan
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2010 1:15 am
Posts: 1534
SassyOh wrote:
Jigglypuff wrote:
Wow, I'm pissed. I found a clip of Tosh.0 where Tosh makes jokes about a video of a kid getting sexually assaulted. How is he allowed on TV??


Oh, it gets 'better'--the video was posted on his Comedy Central page! Under the cut you'll find a graphic and very triggering link to Feminist Armchair Regime's description of the video and a link to Tosh's douchetacular response to it (however, you have to view the video and give this cockbag the attention he craves). fork this guy and those who defend him.

Spoiler: show
http://feminist-armchair-regime.blogspot.com/2012/07/shows-rape-of-teen-boy-that-tosh-showed.html

Yep, that's exactly what I was looking at. I can't believe anyone finds that funny. I think the eternal question should be "would you want someone to treat you like this?" and if the answer to that is "no," you should not do it and not laugh at it. Fuuuuuck.

_________________
"One time I meant to send a potential employer a resume, but I accidentally sent them a bucket of puke!

So embarrassing!" -just mumbles


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Daniel Tosh is a crasshole, The Onion is worse.
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 1:56 pm 
Offline
Thinks Plants Have Feelings

Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 5:11 pm
Posts: 61
The onion piece is very good satire. Its not intended to be funny-- its intended to be disgusting and shocking.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Daniel Tosh is a crasshole, The Onion is worse.
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 3:01 pm 
Offline
Flat Chesty McNoBoobs
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 11:41 am
Posts: 7522
Location: Portland
Thank you for that much-needed clarification.

_________________
If you spit on my food I will blow your forking head off, you filthy shitdog. - Mumbles
Don't you know that vegan meat is the gateway drug to chicken addiction? Because GMO and trans-fats. - kaerlighed


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Daniel Tosh is a crasshole, The Onion is worse.
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 10:10 pm 
Offline
Venomous Head of Veganism
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 2:21 pm
Posts: 8592
Wait a sec. The Onion is satire? Like...not true? I'm super confused.

_________________
"You guys are a little bit fast to identify as not-mumbles. " ~ mumbles


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Daniel Tosh is a crasshole, The Onion is worse.
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 11:35 pm 
Offline
Nailed to the V

Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 8:19 pm
Posts: 547
Location: Sacred City, California
unethical_vegan wrote:
The onion piece is very good satire. Its not intended to be funny-- its intended to be disgusting and shocking.


It's satire, just really hamfisted and juvenile satire.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 41 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Mars, Nebraskalaska and 4 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
Template made by DEVPPL/ThatBigForum and fancied up by What Cheer