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 Post subject: feeding pets meat + animal welfare
PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 5:13 pm 
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Just curious about what everyone thinks about this...if you feed your pet meat, is it free-range? Only certain animals? Only organic meat? Does it not matter to you?

My cat Agnes eats Orijen dry food (cat and kitten, not the 6 fish) and Before Grain wet food (chicken and turkey flavors). I mostly chose Orijen because it contains free-range chicken and turkey, as well as wild-caught fish. The Before Grain, though, as far as I know, contains standard factory-farmed birds. I used to feed Agnes mostly fish but as I did more research on cat diets I decided that I really wanted to minimize how much fish she ate for health reasons, and since the Orijen already contains some she doesn't get any fish in wet food anymore.

I generally won't feed her mammals (I would probably feed her a rodent-based food if that were available, though!), just chicken and turkey. Something about feeding her duck makes me squeamish (I like ducks!) but I realize that is the same weird logic that omnivores use, you know? I also absolutely cringe when I see rabbit-based cat food because I used to have a pet rabbit, which is also kind of irrational since I'm sure I could also get emotionally attached to a turkey or chicken if I had the opportunity. I have been thinking about switching her wet food to something free-range, though as far as I can tell my options for that are pretty much Weruva, which she doesn't like and is super expensive, and Go!, which I have never tried. I'm pretty sure Go! is over $2 a 5.5 oz can at my local pet store, but it looks like if I bought a case on Amazon it would break down to $1.58 a can, which is not THAT much more than I pay for Before Grain. So I might get her a few cans from the local pet store and see if she likes it.

But then of course, I wonder, does free-range really make a difference? Obviously as a vegan I don't believe it makes enough of a difference where I think it's ok for me to eat. But I also think my cat needs to eat meat to live a healthy life and it's my responsibility to take care of her.

Oh and just for reference, this is my running list of pet food companies that use free-range meat

Champion Pet Foods (Orijen, Acana)
Weruva (not the BFF line, I don't think)
Go!
Newman's Own (free-range beef)
The Honest Kitchen

Anyone know of any more?

Oh also I am writing an essay for a website on this topic but I've realized that my thoughts on it are pretty muddled which is somewhat related to me asking what you guys think. Sometimes I do have moments where I'm like, wow, I am funding the slaughter of a whole lot of animals to keep this one animal alive. (Don't worry, I'm not going to euthanize Agnes for the greater good, she is my life.)

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 Post subject: Re: feeding pets meat + animal welfare
PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 5:27 pm 
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We buy the cheap crepe for the cats because I have deluded myself that that stuff is most likely to be made of by products of human consumption, rather than human grade food that would otherwise be feed to people. I am likely completely wrong.

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 Post subject: Re: feeding pets meat + animal welfare
PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 5:43 pm 
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Tofulish wrote:
We buy the cheap crepe for the cats because I have deluded myself that that stuff is most likely to be made of by products of human consumption, rather than human grade food that would otherwise be feed to people. I am likely completely wrong.


I think that is probably often true, though if labels just say "animal" or "meat" anything and don't specify what animal, it's sometimes euthanized dogs and cats, which concerns me because of the presence of phenobarbital...I've also heard that dogs and cats are sometimes rendered collars and all? I don't have documentation available on that or anything, though.

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 Post subject: Re: feeding pets meat + animal welfare
PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 5:46 pm 
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There is also the matter of animal testing. I think I might be convincing myself to switch the The Honest Kitchen dehydrated foods. This shiitake is complicated and I wish there were more pet food companies I felt good about.

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 Post subject: Re: feeding pets meat + animal welfare
PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 5:47 pm 
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This is a fascinating topic. Here is my muddled response.

I admit that I do not pay very much attention to free-range/cage-free versus non-free-range issues--partly because I don't really trust any business to deliver on that promise consistently. We as consumers are pretty easy to fool, and as far as I know, there aren't any independent standards or inspections to verify pet food manufacturer statements. (But I could be wrong!) If the pet food manufacturer sources any of its food from China, all bets are off.

Also, I'll admit that I am cheap. I like to feed a quality food, but I will not pay (what I feel are) unreasonably high prices for it. Especially since I don't feel that there is a close correlation between amount spent on food versus amount spent on vet bills/pet lifespan. (There are too many kitties who live long happy lives on Friskies, I think! I could be totally wrong on this, as I am only relying on anecdotal evidence.) (I feel the same about my own personal food choices--I do not eat exclusively organic.) Also, I live with eight cats (plus a couple of freeloaders), so expensive food choices add up to an amount that breaks my budget. A few of my cats are 12+ years old, and I haven't had to deal with serious chronic conditions (yet): one has renal insufficiency at 8 years, but he is being monitored, no diabetes, no thyroid conditions, no sad cancers. (Knock on wood!)

Fish
I have avoided fish-based pet food (I live with kitties) for a long time now, because of the waste and overwhelming environmental damage in the fish industry (bycatch is at the rate of 16 lbs of waste per 1 lb eaten for humans, including dolphins and sea turtles, which I feel is unacceptable; I'm pretty sure the bycatch does not get processed into the food supply for humans or animals). Also, I'm afraid that the kitties will become addicted to fish-flavor, so I avoid it for that reason as well.

Beef
A long time ago several of my cats just flat out stopped eating any form of beef kitty food or vomited from it; so I assumed that there was something about the taste or the processing that they didn't like, so that ended all my trials with beef, free-range or not.

Chicken/Turkey/Other birds
I tend to stick with Chicken and Turkey because I do not want to support the 'perfection' of domestication and production of other species. It's enough that two species are enslaved, yes? Again, I don't have enough faith in the standards of the organic label to make it worth my while to always purchase it. I also don't think that organic standards mean much better treatment for the birds than non-organic standards, so it's again not an important issue for me.

Rabbit/Venison/Lamb
As with above on ducks and gooses, I do not want to add to the number of species than have already been sucked into our sad human and animal food system.

I should look up the standards of the pet foods that I feed the cats, but I haven't.
Kibble: Dick Van Patten's Natural Balance (I am 99% positive that they source their chicken and other ingredients at least partly from China, another reason to not value the organic label very much -- I don't think there is much reason to trust Chinese organic standards at all.)
Wet: Sad to say, Fancy Feast Turkey and Chicken flavors. They probably have some fish ingredients and probably don't even use so-called good cuts. But I'm being honest here, for your sake! The cats love it and it's their little daily treat.
Frozen: Instinct frozen chicken medallions. One kitty had all sorts of intestinal troubles and got really weak and thin. On the advice of our vet we tried this raw frozen food, which comes in both organic and non-organic chicken versions (with a substantial price difference), and she thrived, putting weight back on and enjoying life again. The kitty enjoys both organic and non-organic and is able to keep both of them down. I usually choose the non-organic one to save money.

Like you, I "think my cat needs to eat meat to live a healthy life and it's my responsibility to take care of her." I think our human food choices shape the landscape of animal food production far more than pet food production. I think that doing what I can for human vegan food advocacy is my most important contribution to reducing the amount of animal consumption in the world.

If a proven vegan cat kibble became available, I would love to try it again. I had a few close calls with UTIs with the cats a while ago, so I won't be trying it again until I hear consistent recommendations from a lot of people that their cats are thriving on it.

More than you wanted to know, I'm sure! :)


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 Post subject: Re: feeding pets meat + animal welfare
PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 5:47 pm 
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Awesome thread idea, strawberryrock. We used Wellness when Luna was our only fur kid, but when we took in Dexter he was having a lot of stomach issues so we switched to Halo because they have two sensitive stomach varieties. I am reading Halo's website and I cannot find anything about it being free range, which kind of surprises me given Ellen's level of involvement.

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 Post subject: Re: feeding pets meat + animal welfare
PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 5:51 pm 
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I'm reading the Petcurean website now, which makes Go! foods, and while the product description on another website said it's free-range, the website itself doesn't say so! Maybe I'll shoot them an email and figure out what's up.

By Nature makes an organic wet food but Agnes won't touch it, and I know vegans always say that organic meat doesn't equal better quality of life for the animals...but I honestly don't know much about that because I've never actually considered eating organic meat, you know?

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 Post subject: Re: feeding pets meat + animal welfare
PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 5:51 pm 
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strawberryrock wrote:
Tofulish wrote:
We buy the cheap crepe for the cats because I have deluded myself that that stuff is most likely to be made of by products of human consumption, rather than human grade food that would otherwise be feed to people. I am likely completely wrong.


I think that is probably often true, though if labels just say "animal" or "meat" anything and don't specify what animal, it's sometimes euthanized dogs and cats, which concerns me because of the presence of phenobarbital...I've also heard that dogs and cats are sometimes rendered collars and all? I don't have documentation available on that or anything, though.


Well... that was all news to me. My goodness. : (

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 Post subject: Re: feeding pets meat + animal welfare
PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 6:00 pm 
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Ok, I finally found this on the Petcurean website:

Quote:
Is the poultry used in your recipes cage-free? What about steroid and hormone free?
Yes. The use of hormones and steroids in the production of chicken is illegal in Canada and has been since the 1960's. Our trusted network of farmers raise their poultry in open barns; the flocks are free roaming and have constant access to food and water.

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 Post subject: Re: feeding pets meat + animal welfare
PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 6:15 pm 
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At least in the US, they are all slaughtered in the same places. I see the fancy pet food in the same light as humane meat. Buy what you can reasonably afford.

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 Post subject: Re: feeding pets meat + animal welfare
PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2012 6:34 pm 
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Nimrod is horribly allergic to everything: we went through an elimination diet for weeks and decided that hypoallergenic duck and pea is the only thing that will keep all of the itchy flare-ups and scabs away. It's about 60 bucks for 24 cans (she eats 1 can a day), but that is cheaper than an allergic reaction that equals 500 dollar visits multiple times per flare ups.

Would I like to feed her a vegan diet? yes. Do I want to screw around with her health, my sanity and her well-being? no. Am I okay with all of this? no. but we are doing what is best for right now. I don't have a good answer, but will accept the best one for right now. Royal canin hypoallergenic duck and pea.

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 Post subject: Re: feeding pets meat + animal welfare
PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:49 pm 
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I wish I could get my dog to eat vegan dog food. Sadly, she turns her nose up at it, and when she determines she doesn't want to eat what she's been given, she flat out does not eat. She will go all day without eating if I don't give her what she wants. It's awful, and I wish I knew how to fix it without feeling like I was starving her.

Tthe only dog food she'll eat is Cesar in the little wet containers, so I buy her those. I'm not sure the flavors are really all that different from one another; they all look and smell the same (like death). I suspect the ingredients are mostly the same, regardless of what animal it claims to be made from. I like to think it's all byproducts of the meat industry, unfit for human consumption.


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 Post subject: Re: feeding pets meat + animal welfare
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 12:26 am 
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I just try to buy the food that has a meat as the first ingredient for my cat because it's best for them (dry food wise anyway). I honestly can't afford any organic or farm raised food, so I just try not to think about it :T I have a hard enough time feeding myself.


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 Post subject: Re: feeding pets meat + animal welfare
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 6:19 am 
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We feed our cats tiki cat. The last time I did research about them I found that they had sustainable catching practices. They also get evo dry food. I haven't looked into any of their food in a couple years though, so everything could be different now!


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 Post subject: Re: feeding pets meat + animal welfare
PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:12 am 
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our cats are fed Halo since it's a good sensitive stomach food for them.

as for our dog julie, we cook her food. every week i buy an organic "free-range" chicken & cook it. i combine the pulled chicken with organic brown rice, organic chickpeas/kidney beans, and organic veggies (it varies per week, but it's usually a combination of broccoli, kale, carrots, pumpkin, sweet potato, green beans and peas). i would love for julie to be vegan, but she's allergic to soy, quinoa, & wheat. we tried reducing the amount of chicken in her food and increasing the beans - she was not a fan. perhaps some day though, although i'm not too worried about it. if she doesn't wanna be vegan i'm not going to fret over it. that's kinda how i look at it, and i'd rather buy & cook the chicken myself then have it come from sources i don't trust.


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 Post subject: Re: feeding pets meat + animal welfare
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 8:03 am 
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i have been thinking about this recently too, but I would never consider making my cats vegan, unlike us and dogs they are entirely carnivorous. It is cruel and selfish to make cats vegan. For one thing they can't make taurine like omnivores can, they need to get it through eating meat. I think about what cat food is healthiest for my cats, not what standard of meat went into it. Its not ideal but my cats are my responsibility and rely on me so I put their health first. Biscuits are awful for cats, they dehydrate and contain mainly cereal, useless to a carnivore. Tinned meat is at least wetter and you can find brands with more meat and less cereal. I try to check if the protein it contains is D-E-F-I-N-I-T-E-L-Y animal based, not plant based. Ideally I would make my own raw cat food, with free range meat that would be culled anyway, like rabbit or deer, or at least organic. But my 3 are all sickly older rescue cats that don't adapt to changes in diet.

This is a useful website http://www.catnutrition.org/index.html


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 Post subject: Re: feeding pets meat + animal welfare
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 8:07 am 
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Quote:
Beef
A long time ago several of my cats just flat out stopped eating any form of beef kitty food or vomited from it; so I assumed that there was something about the taste or the processing that they didn't like, so that ended all my trials with beef, free-range or not
.



Every advice I have ever read about cat food says avoid beef, it often causes vomiting. No idea why.


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 Post subject: Re: feeding pets meat + animal welfare
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 8:49 am 
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I feed my cat a mixture of dry and wet food, mostly chicken or turkey based. I avoid cheap brands only because feeding grains to an overweight cat doesn't seem like a good idea. The dry kibble I give kitty contains rice, but she only gets a small amount each day mixed with grain-free wet food.

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 Post subject: Re: feeding pets meat + animal welfare
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 9:19 am 
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Mine also eat the Orijen cat & kitten dry food.

For wet food, my cats will only eat the Weruva chicken. I've tried other varieties, and they just flat out refuse to eat it. Even with the Newman's own, which is easy to find in my grocery store--they just lick the gravy off and howl for something else.

Beef never seemed right to me because, while they are cousins of wild cats, domestic cats could never take down cattle.

I'd feed them human-grade food either way, and I looked into what seemed to me to be the most ethical choice I could make, given that I give them a meat diet. I guess I just feel that, if I ate meat, I wouldn't want to feed them anything I couldn't eat if I had to. Maybe that's a silly way of looking at it--I don't know.

I tend not to buy anything made of mammal or fish. The mammal thing is mostly emotional, plus the times I've had to buy something else because the store was out of the Weruva chicken, they refused to eat it. They won't even eat the chicken with peas and carrots! Just plain shredded chicken, all the time. I might be better off just buying and cooking it, but that just grosses me out too much.

My dog thrives on a vegan diet (besides what her grammy slips her), but I wouldn't feel comfortable putting my cats on one until there are some long-term studies that show how it can be safely done for most cats, not just anecdotal "My cat does fine." stories. Also, if I'm dog developed multiple grain allergies at any point, I'd do what I needed to do for her.

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 Post subject: Re: feeding pets meat + animal welfare
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 9:30 am 
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I used to have pet rats, when I own my own home and have them again I will make my own rat food, they are omnivores so I would research how much meat they need if any and only buy the best quality I can afford, they are tiny little animals it won't be expensive.


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 Post subject: Re: feeding pets meat + animal welfare
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:38 pm 
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erinwyso wrote:
Nimrod is horribly allergic to everything: we went through an elimination diet for weeks and decided that hypoallergenic duck and pea is the only thing that will keep all of the itchy flare-ups and scabs away. It's about 60 bucks for 24 cans (she eats 1 can a day), but that is cheaper than an allergic reaction that equals 500 dollar visits multiple times per flare ups.



Dick Van Patten's has a hypo-allergenic green pea and duck formula that is maybe $1-$1.50 a can at Petco. I used to think Dolores was allergic to grain, so I put her on that food. She loves it. But then again she loves any food...

I'm currently feeding Dolores the Dick Van Patten Limited ingredient foods (wet and dry), though will be switching her to a low-calorie dry food later this month. I have no idea what brand I'll be doing, but I'll be trying to keep her on a low grain/no grain diet.

She has a little weight problem and a big appetite (and if she's hungry, she will scream until all my roommates have headaches!) so I have another trick that the vet told me to do. I get a big can of pumpkin puree, a bit of fiber powder, and a little can of wet food. I blend them together, and viola! More fiber, less calories, and less overall cost than flat-out wet food. She eats it without complaint and it seems to keep her full longer than plain wet food.


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 Post subject: Re: feeding pets meat + animal welfare
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:43 pm 
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Oh hey guys, this is the piece I wrote that I was thinking about when I started this thread.

http://www.catster.com/lifestyle/vegan-cat-owners-tips

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 Post subject: Re: feeding pets meat + animal welfare
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 3:57 am 
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My dog and cat are still on the same diet they have been on. I'm working on me first and getting settled well into the diet and lifestyle.

I won't be changing the cat to a vegan diet but I am going to start researching "better" options soon. He is fussy so I keep putting it off because a change will involve a lot of trial and error and money which I don't have. At the moment he is on cheap and not cheerful food but it is fairly happy. He gets a combination of wet and dry.

It will probably be the same for the dog. She will be reaching the 12 month mark at the end of October so will be due to change too adult food then. She's a german shepherd so she comes with an easily upset digestive system so I am praying she will settle on a decent, ethical brand. At the moment she is thriving on a fairly cheap puppy mix. Any of the good brands gave her constant diahorrea.

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 Post subject: Re: feeding pets meat + animal welfare
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 7:53 am 
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Our vet is having us try a single-protein diet, so we have to feed our cat a venison and pea hypoallergenic food by Royal Canin. I am highly skeptical that she needs to be on it, but we'll see. I'm not a huge fan of feeding her one thing for the rest of her life.


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 Post subject: Re: feeding pets meat + animal welfare
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 9:26 am 
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That was a great piece strawberryrock! The comments weren't even too scary. You did a good job of jumping in and moderating them to keep the tone positive.


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