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 Post subject: Re: Leather and ethics
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 3:34 pm 
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indexandicon wrote:
I have a lot of pregan leather and wool that I continue to use. As I buy most of my clothes used, I continue to buy used wool sweaters, blankets, etc. I wouldn't accept anything new made from animal parts, but compassionate ethics are only part of why I am vegan, environmental issues are also hugely important to me, so I prioritize not wasting and not buying things made from petroleum products as much as I prioritize not enslaving and torturing animals. I think it's a personal choice and when I run into the "I'm more vegan than thou," crowd while carrying my circa 1970 leather handbag, I don't really bother with their demands that I sell it or forfeit my V card. The whole vegan definition is to avoid cruelty to the best of one's ability, in my mind that includes cruelty to the planet and the third world laborers who make cheap vegan shoes. So, I think continue to use and re-use what you have and let the haters hate, you know where your heart is!


This.

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 Post subject: Re: Leather and ethics
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 4:26 pm 
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JimXVX wrote:
Chicki wrote:
It's all about whatever you feel is right. The vegan police might come after you. So what? They are all corrupt anyways.


If you wear leather you are not vegan. You may eat a vegan diet, but you're not vegan.


Then neither are the rest of the people in this thread that use their old leather products. You really gonna be a stickler for someone that has, let's say, a leather belt they still use? Or a pair of shoes? Or a 30 year binocular case?

There is such a broad spectrum of using animal products. I can consider myself vegan even if I keep a leather belt, pair of shoes etc from 3+ years ago. When people start arguing over tiny things like that, it seems kind of silly. We are all on the same team. It's not like I occasionally eat ice cream or steak and continue to identify as a vegan.

But hey, if you wanna call the vegan police on me, that's ok. I am stealthy. I can evade arrest for quite a bit. Probably until my leather shoes and belts all fall apart. By then the statue of limitations will have run out and I will be in the clear.


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 Post subject: Re: Leather and ethics
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 4:52 pm 
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Oh, I also wanted to add that for me, this is a journey. My first step was just changing my diet. Now it has moved onto other items (clothing, cosmetics, etc). I am also moving toward participating in more activism, when I can.

When it was only diet, I did not identify myself as 'vegan' (I would say 'dietary vegan' or 'plant based diet' or something). Now that I have included items I use on a daily basis, and more importantly no longer buy them, I feel more comfortable using that label.


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 Post subject: Re: Leather and ethics
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 7:41 am 
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Chicki wrote:
JimXVX wrote:
It's not like I occasionally eat ice cream or steak and continue to identify as a vegan.


What's the difference though? Perhaps in emotive terms where we're pre-programmed from our 'pregan' days to view leather as a mere by-product of the meat industry (which is a fallacy) & therefore somewhat of a lesser evil it's easier to rationalise continuing to use it, but in objective terms there is no distinction.

Of course by continuing to wear old leather items you already owned when you went veg*an you're not actively bringing harm to an animal, but you are perpetuating the notion that the use/abuse of animals is normal & acceptable.


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 Post subject: Re: Leather and ethics
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 8:07 am 
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Personally, I wouldn't feel comfortable wearing oh say, a leather jacket no longer how long I had owned it (although I haven't worn leather for 15 years apart from second hand shoes). Not just because of the ick factor, but because it's obvious leather and people will see it. But I still have a black pregan dress that's part silk (which I didn't know when I bought it or I wouldn't have, vegan or not, worms ew), no one knows it is by looking at it, it fits me fine, and as long as I have it I never need another dress to wear to a wedding/funeral/semi-fancy thing. I hate shopping for clothes.

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 Post subject: Re: Leather and ethics
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 9:38 am 
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mrsbadmouth wrote:
Personally, I wouldn't feel comfortable wearing oh say, a leather jacket no longer how long I had owned it (although I haven't worn leather for 15 years apart from second hand shoes). Not just because of the ick factor, but because it's obvious leather and people will see it. But I still have a black pregan dress that's part silk (which I didn't know when I bought it or I wouldn't have, vegan or not, worms ew), no one knows it is by looking at it, it fits me fine, and as long as I have it I never need another dress to wear to a wedding/funeral/semi-fancy thing. I hate shopping for clothes.

Yeah, I relate to this. I also hate shopping for clothes. My mum has bought me a few items containing wool over the years. She didn't know any better (but does now) and I don't have the heart to hurt her feelings, because she seems very personally hurt when I don't like her gifts. When she buys me non-vegan makeup/body products, I do let her know/return them.

My ballet shoes are leather, and I've had them for 13 years. I'm not going to replace them anytime soon, unless I need to. They kind of gross me out, but they are so expensive and I don't dance very regularly anymore. Whenever I wear them I roll my eyes thinking about how Natalie Portman has vegan ballet shoes but she regularly admits to cheating on her vegan diet.


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 Post subject: Re: Leather and ethics
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 12:41 pm 
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Haha. Funny. because of this thread I went back and checked my shoes and belts that I have had for years, and they are fake leather anyways!

I what I am trying to say is, for me, this is a journey. I won't buy any more animal products, but I am phasing them out. That's why I still have some leftover stuff. If someone calls me on my veganism, I can explain this and still feel ok with myself.

I had someone once call me out for using fossil fuels. And using plastic bags (which I try to avoid of course, but sometimes I forget.) Oh, and someone called me out for using an (organic, natural) kind of pesticide in my garden, since it was killing plants. And killing bugs. Yeah, I kill black widows. One bit a kitteh of mine once and she died because of it. :(


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 Post subject: Re: Leather and ethics
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 1:14 pm 
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JimXVX wrote:
Chicki wrote:
It's all about whatever you feel is right. The vegan police might come after you. So what? They are all corrupt anyways.


If you wear leather you are not vegan. You may eat a vegan diet, but you're not vegan.


Bull shiitake.

A vegan is some one who as far as practicably possible avoids the use of animal products.
This can mean that a group of vegans wear leather because it's not practicably possible for them to replace their shoes with non-leather items.


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 Post subject: Re: Leather and ethics
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 1:20 pm 
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JimXVX wrote:
What's the difference though?

Well, let's see....

JimXVX wrote:
Of course by continuing to wear old leather items you already owned when you went veg*an you're not actively bringing harm to an animal [...]

Oh, there it is.

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 Post subject: Re: Leather and ethics
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 1:41 pm 
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just mumbles wrote:
JimXVX wrote:
What's the difference though?

Well, let's see....

JimXVX wrote:
Of course by continuing to wear old leather items you already owned when you went veg*an you're not actively bringing harm to an animal [...]

Oh, there it is.


Thanks for only quoting half my sentence thereby changing the context of what I said; nicely done.

OK here's another example for you - folk who 'cheat' when offered non vegan food by saying that the animal is already dead etc. This is not directly causing animals to be killed either but I don't reckon you'll find many people here who'd defend it.


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 Post subject: Re: Leather and ethics
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 1:45 pm 
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Veg_Eric wrote:
JimXVX wrote:
Chicki wrote:
It's all about whatever you feel is right. The vegan police might come after you. So what? They are all corrupt anyways.


If you wear leather you are not vegan. You may eat a vegan diet, but you're not vegan.


Bull shiitake.

A vegan is some one who as far as practicably possible avoids the use of animal products.
This can mean that a group of vegans wear leather because it's not practicably possible for them to replace their shoes with non-leather items.

to play devil's advocate on that, I think the point was that many people are actively CHOOSING to wear leather with the defense of it being okay because it's second hand. that has nothing to do with being practical..

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 Post subject: Re: Leather and ethics
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 1:55 pm 
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JimXVX wrote:
Thanks for only quoting half my sentence thereby changing the context of what I said; nicely done.

Sure. I mean, I included the ellipsis just in case anyone didn't realize I was shortening the quote, but ok. Does the context matter? Are you eliding the difference between harming animals and not harming animals any less if I include the full quote?

Because you seem to want to say here that whether or not you harm animals directly/actively is a distinction without a difference, which is pretty surprising.

Quote:
OK here's another example for you - folk who 'cheat' when offered non vegan food by saying that the animal is already dead etc. This is not directly causing animals to be killed either but I don't reckon you'll find many people here who'd defend it.

Well, I can't think of too many plausible situations where I'd be consuming animals products that aren't "already dead", so that argument doesn't get very far, I think. There's a general principle in ethics and law that we're responsible for actions taken on our behalf by others--as does my agent, so do I. If you're partaking in a living process that produces dead animals for you, I think you're doing something wrong.

That's easily separated from artifacts of processes that aren't ongoing--wearing leather when I've resolved not to buy any in the future, not to participate in the objectionable industry, just isn't causally similar.

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 Post subject: Re: Leather and ethics
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 3:38 pm 
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just mumbles wrote:
There's a general principle in ethics and law that we're responsible for actions taken on our behalf by others--as does my agent, so do I. If you're partaking in a living process that produces dead animals for you, I think you're doing something wrong.

That's easily separated from artifacts of processes that aren't ongoing--wearing leather when I've resolved not to buy any in the future, not to participate in the objectionable industry, just isn't causally similar.


This.

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 Post subject: Re: Leather and ethics
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 4:07 pm 
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joshua wrote:
to play devil's advocate on that, I think the point was that many people are actively CHOOSING to wear leather with the defense of it being okay because it's second hand. that has nothing to do with being practical..


I have the assumption that Jimxvx makes a "blanket statement" and in my view (some) vegans wear leather cause they have that stuff from their pregan days. It doesn't make them less vegan. There is also a category of vegans who can not afford to order vegan shoes online. There also will be some vegans who will have to wear leather (safety) shoes because it's mandatory at their workplace.

So in my view one can be vegan even if wearing leather shoes.


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 Post subject: Re: Leather and ethics
PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 1:50 am 
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I think that arguing about how vegan vegans are is pretty much the most ridiculous waste of time ever. I don't mean for that to sound mean, but it's just--that vegan with the pregan leather shoes and the one with the vegan shoes--they're both working toward the same goal. Which are both heaps better attitudes than that of that person who couldn't give a shiitake.


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 Post subject: Re: Leather and ethics
PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 3:33 am 
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I still have my leather doc martins. Granted they are starting to fall apart and need a one way trip to the bin but until I have the money they will be staying on my feet going to work. Cosmetics I am changing to vegan alternatives as they run out. Financially speaking it would be ridiculous to change everything the first day I decided to become vegan. Buying the bits and bobs for baking my own cakes and cookies is expensive enough.

I won't be averse to the idea of buying second hand leather. It's not creating the supply and demand chain. Granted the only leather I would buy would be in footwear and the thought of wearing someone else's shoes makes me a tad queasy. But it wouldn't make me raise an eyebrow if another vegan chose to buy second hand leather.

People will all have opinions on the way you live your life. If they are only judging me on what shoes I am wearing while they eat their chicken sandwich then I am escaping easy!

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 Post subject: Re: Leather and ethics
PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 3:41 am 
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vijita wrote:
I think that arguing about how vegan vegans are is pretty much the most ridiculous waste of time ever. I don't mean for that to sound mean, but it's just--that vegan with the pregan leather shoes and the one with the vegan shoes--they're both working toward the same goal. Which are both heaps better attitudes than that of that person who couldn't give a shiitake.


Agreed. I also think that telling someone who still has a pair of pregan boots or a wallet their grandfather gave them, or even a second-hand leather belt, that they're not vegan, even though they're doing everything else they can to eliminate animal products, just discourages people from even trying. I'm glad Chicki can laugh it off, but not everybody has the same confidence.

Also, if wearing old leather is problematic because it still sends the signal that it's ok to wear leather, why is it also not problematic to wear vegan shoes/bags/wallets that look like leather? Those still promote the idea that leather is fashionable, unless you wear a big flashing neon sign that everything you're wearing is vegan.

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 Post subject: Re: Leather and ethics
PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 8:37 am 
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At the VegFest in Vancouver last year they asked all volunteers to not wear anything that looks like leather. I thought that was really futile.


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 Post subject: Re: Leather and ethics
PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 5:39 pm 
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Veg_Eric wrote:
I have the assumption that Jimxvx makes a "blanket statement" and in my view (some) vegans wear leather cause they have that stuff from their pregan days. It doesn't make them less vegan. There is also a category of vegans who can not afford to order vegan shoes online. There also will be some vegans who will have to wear leather (safety) shoes because it's mandatory at their workplace.

So in my view one can be vegan even if wearing leather shoes.


Fair enough you & others here share that view but I completely disagree.

You can get canvas shoes for less than a fiver here in the UK easily enough so it's hardly true to say that non-leather footwear is prohibitively expensive. Also, synthetic safety footwear isn't hard to find if you care to look.


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 Post subject: Re: Leather and ethics
PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 6:05 pm 
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JimXVX wrote:
You can get canvas shoes for less than a fiver here in the UK easily enough so it's hardly true to say that non-leather footwear is prohibitively expensive. Also, synthetic safety footwear isn't hard to find if you care to look.

links?

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 Post subject: Re: Leather and ethics
PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 6:13 pm 
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Seriously, I would love to know where I can get a decent pair of shoes for under a fiver. Sounds brilliant! And magical! And imaginary! Please enlighten.

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 Post subject: Re: Leather and ethics
PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 6:17 pm 
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I think the point is that the selection of reasonably high-quality shoes can become limited if you can't spend a lot on the kind you would have to order. Because of the way my feet are shaped, cheap canvas shoes (haven't come across the <5s) usually mean instant hole in the back of my heel and blood everywhere. Needless to say, they would also be completely unsuitable for when it's not dry and warm outside. I have, amongst other things, a pair of winter boots I got 13 years ago that I have no intention of getting rid of until they fall apart. But don't worry, I don't call myself vegan anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: Leather and ethics
PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 6:36 pm 
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But any shoes, leather or pleather or canvas or whatever are going to be limited if you don't have moneys to spend. I've never seen such £5 shoes unless Jim means the rubber plimsoles one wears in primary school for P.E.

I personally don't own anything leather, but getting all judgy-pants on vegans that do is a fruitless and pointless endeavour as far as I'm concerned.

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 Post subject: Re: Leather and ethics
PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 6:43 pm 
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I think that discussions like this (namely, claiming that if someone is not absolutely perfect they can't call themselves vegan) keep more people from trying out veganism. And this makes me sad. I don't wear leather, used or otherwise, but I don't have any leather from my pregnant days because it was never my style. I don't feel that this makes me any more vegan, or a better vegan than someone who does otherwise. Calling out people who are trying to do a good thing is not helping animals. Veganism seems like a major lifestyle change to many omnis, and if they get overwhelmed by details like old leather products it can discourage them from even trying.

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 Post subject: Re: Leather and ethics
PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 6:44 pm 
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Ha! Autocorrected! *pregan, not pregnant!

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