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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 12:28 pm 
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This has been a good discussion for me. It's helped me understand why people are so upset. The three things that strike me are 1) not enough info on radiation 2) people who want privacy or don't like the idea of someone seeing their body 3) the new scanner might not even be making a difference. I don't know what I'm going to do when I fly in December. I may just opt-out becasue there may be people who REALLY don't want someone touching their body and I can try to make the point for them. Again, I'll think about it more.


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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 1:06 pm 
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Fee wrote:
What do you think we thought it was?

And I don't really mean that in a snarky way, but a legit - do you think we're under the impression that it's something different than has already been posted about? I haven't read anything so far that makes me feel better about it at all.


I mostly thought, before this thread, that the public outcry was because people didn't want security people to see outlines of their private parts. I guess I expected more of that here; instead it sounds like there are worries over going through the procedure itself. Which, though annoying, isn't bad.

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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 1:07 pm 
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vegetalion wrote:
Fee wrote:
What do you think we thought it was?

And I don't really mean that in a snarky way, but a legit - do you think we're under the impression that it's something different than has already been posted about? I haven't read anything so far that makes me feel better about it at all.


I mostly thought, before this thread, that the public outcry was because people didn't want security people to see outlines of their private parts. I guess I expected more of that here; instead it sounds like there are worries over going through the procedure itself. Which, though annoying, isn't bad.


Although I should add that until this week I didn't know about the radiation issue, which would make me avoid them in the future.

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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 1:29 pm 
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I think not wanting what are essentially images of your nude body shown to strangers is a legitimate position. Regardless of radiation. Would you like it if the procedure was that you walked behind a screen, took your clothes off, and then a TSA agent checked over your naked body? Not in public for other passengers to see, and with no exposure to radiation?

I wouldn't.

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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 1:36 pm 
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choirqueer wrote:
Transgender people who have genitals that don't "match" what someone's expecting to see (on the scanner) or feel (in the pat-down) could be subject to further harassment/humiliation.

This is what is the kicker for me. How dare the TSA feel they have a right to look at one's genitals (which is essentially what they're doing when performing this scan) and then some dope TSA agent decides that the ID doesn't match the parts (if still transitioning) so something is awry or whatever and gives the person a hard time.
(I'm not good with words, so I hope this came out how I wanted it to and it makes sense?)


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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 1:41 pm 
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FootFace wrote:
I think not wanting what are essentially images of your nude body shown to strangers is a legitimate position. Regardless of radiation. Would you like it if the procedure was that you walked behind a screen, took your clothes off, and then a TSA agent checked over your naked body? Not in public for other passengers to see, and with no exposure to radiation?

I wouldn't.


Me neither.

Like Mumbles said, the real pisser is that these kinds of measures are unproven and are not necessarily going to make people safer. They're needless, unjustified, invasive procedures that are slowly eroding people's privacy rights for no real reason, or at least, if there IS documented evidence that shows that these procedures increase safety, the powers that be don't even value people's rights enough to tell us the interest that our giving up our privacy in this matter is supposed to protect! Why the hell shouldn't we be upset that people are being subjected to invasive investigative procedures when there is no evidence to show that they do anything beyond humiliating people? Isn't it a legitimate position to say that you value privacy rights and don't want to see them arbitrarily eroded?

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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 1:42 pm 
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vegetalion wrote:
Fee wrote:
What do you think we thought it was?

And I don't really mean that in a snarky way, but a legit - do you think we're under the impression that it's something different than has already been posted about? I haven't read anything so far that makes me feel better about it at all.


I mostly thought, before this thread, that the public outcry was because people didn't want security people to see outlines of their private parts. I guess I expected more of that here; instead it sounds like there are worries over going through the procedure itself. Which, though annoying, isn't bad.

that's not what I've gathered from people's opinions in this thread. I wouldn't mind going through 12 extra-time-consuming-gel-liquid-powder-ink-cartridge-detecting-machines and having to pose for them all in funny ways, if they were effective and didn't include someone looking at me naked.

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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 1:56 pm 
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jordanpattern wrote:
FootFace wrote:
I think not wanting what are essentially images of your nude body shown to strangers is a legitimate position. Regardless of radiation. Would you like it if the procedure was that you walked behind a screen, took your clothes off, and then a TSA agent checked over your naked body? Not in public for other passengers to see, and with no exposure to radiation?

I wouldn't.


Me neither.

Like Mumbles said, the real pisser is that these kinds of measures are unproven and are not necessarily going to make people safer. They're needless, unjustified, invasive procedures that are slowly eroding people's privacy rights for no real reason, or at least, if there IS documented evidence that shows that these procedures increase safety, the powers that be don't even value people's rights enough to tell us the interest that our giving up our privacy in this matter is supposed to protect! Why the hell shouldn't we be upset that people are being subjected to invasive investigative procedures when there is no evidence to show that they do anything beyond humiliating people? Isn't it a legitimate position to say that you value privacy rights and don't want to see them arbitrarily eroded?


Okay, I totally agree with this--I guess it just wasn't getting through to me that this is an arbitrary erosion (I like that phrase) of privacy rights. I had never flown anywhere until 2005, after every airport upped its security, and I've been searched once, and I've traveled mostly through the high-traffic (=higher security) areas (NYC, London, here), so I've never equated flying with privacy. I've thought of TSA invasiveness as the norm. But you're right, that doesn't mean it's a good thing, or that it should be acceptable.

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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 2:24 pm 
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Pornoscanner round-up:

Image

Pornoscanner petition

Pornoscanners fooled by PLEATS

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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 2:27 pm 
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As someone with an abnormal body, this horrifies me. I think I'd cry if I had to do this. I fly in December :(

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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 2:36 pm 
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vegetalion wrote:
Okay, I totally agree with this--I guess it just wasn't getting through to me that this is an arbitrary erosion (I like that phrase) of privacy rights. I had never flown anywhere until 2005, after every airport upped its security, and I've been searched once, and I've traveled mostly through the high-traffic (=higher security) areas (NYC, London, here), so I've never equated flying with privacy. I've thought of TSA invasiveness as the norm. But you're right, that doesn't mean it's a good thing, or that it should be acceptable.

Things you could do in airports before the late '90s
1) walk up to the gate to send off/meet up with people who are flying
2) bring in a bottle of water or anything else liquid
3) keep your shoes on
4) have nail files, clippers, and various other somewhat pointy objects on you
5) wear all your clothes through security
6) keep all your electronics in your bag (though there weren't so many electronics in those days)
7) be very secure in the belief that you wouldn't be pulled aside for extra "random" screening unless they found something suspicious/unusual in your bags (like a weapon)
8) park in front of the airport
9) feel secure that a truly innocent joke wouldn't get you arrested

Going through security used to be a hassle, but no more so than going through security at your local courthouse.


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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 2:48 pm 
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Personally, I am kind of neutral on the issue. I don't care if they want to see my naked body...enjoy! I understand though that other people might not feel the same way.

I would like to ask though: how would you do it? I mean, how do you make sure the flight all these people are taking is safe? The terrorist with the smoking underwears, the guy with the bomb in the shoe...those are all real issues. I am just curious as to what you guys can come up with that would prevent these things from going past you under your watch. Does your right to privacy outweigh the risk of thousands of lives? Please don't jump at my throat for this, I am honestly asking. :) I just don't see all this as being about me. There is a lot more at stake.

If there is no documentation or research on how the measures currently in place help anyone be safer, maybe it's because the scanners exist and they are looking at our shoes and now bodies and nobody is going to try getting through with a bomb taped to their boobs them knowing that. Sure, next thing you know they will be sticking things up inside their bodies and there comes the cavity search which is when I will stop flying too, but until then I just shrug and go.

P.S. I flew international out of JFK in NYC and there were no scanners. Also, I understand that in Rome they gave up on them already because they were delaying things too much. Take heart!


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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 3:00 pm 
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Angelina wrote:
I would like to ask though: how would you do it? I mean, how do you make sure the flight all these people are taking is safe? The terrorist with the smoking underwears, the guy with the bomb in the shoe...those are all real issues. I am just curious as to what you guys can come up with that would prevent these things from going past you under your watch. Does your right to privacy outweigh the risk of thousands of lives? Please don't jump at my throat for this, I am honestly asking. :) I just don't see all this as being about me. There is a lot more at stake.

If there is no documentation or research on how the measures currently in place help anyone be safer, maybe it's because the scanners exist and they are looking at our shoes and now bodies and nobody is going to try getting through with a bomb taped to their boobs them knowing that. Sure, next thing you know they will be sticking things up inside their bodies and there comes the cavity search which is when I will stop flying too, but until then I just shrug and go.

I'd personally consider our foreign policy to start. But we also had airport security in place for quite a while before nine eleven that was fairly effective. I just don't think the extreme reactionary stance is so effective.
If you want to make a flight 100% safe, then you close all airports and flights.

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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 3:05 pm 
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Angelina wrote:
Personally, I am kind of neutral on the issue. I don't care if they want to see my naked body...enjoy! I understand though that other people might not feel the same way.

I would like to ask though: how would you do it? I mean, how do you make sure the flight all these people are taking is safe? The terrorist with the smoking underwears, the guy with the bomb in the shoe...those are all real issues. I am just curious as to what you guys can come up with that would prevent these things from going past you under your watch. Does your right to privacy outweigh the risk of thousands of lives? Please don't jump at my throat for this, I am honestly asking. :) I just don't see all this as being about me. There is a lot more at stake.

If there is no documentation or research on how the measures currently in place help anyone be safer, maybe it's because the scanners exist and they are looking at our shoes and now bodies and nobody is going to try getting through with a bomb taped to their boobs them knowing that. Sure, next thing you know they will be sticking things up inside their bodies and there comes the cavity search which is when I will stop flying too, but until then I just shrug and go.

P.S. I flew international out of JFK in NYC and there were no scanners. Also, I understand that in Rome they gave up on them already because they were delaying things too much. Take heart!

People safely ride trains in the U.S. every day without even going through a metal detector. Why is a plane so different?


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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 3:14 pm 
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pandacookie wrote:
Angelina wrote:
I would like to ask though: how would you do it? I mean, how do you make sure the flight all these people are taking is safe? The terrorist with the smoking underwears, the guy with the bomb in the shoe...those are all real issues. I am just curious as to what you guys can come up with that would prevent these things from going past you under your watch. Does your right to privacy outweigh the risk of thousands of lives? Please don't jump at my throat for this, I am honestly asking. :) I just don't see all this as being about me. There is a lot more at stake.

If there is no documentation or research on how the measures currently in place help anyone be safer, maybe it's because the scanners exist and they are looking at our shoes and now bodies and nobody is going to try getting through with a bomb taped to their boobs them knowing that. Sure, next thing you know they will be sticking things up inside their bodies and there comes the cavity search which is when I will stop flying too, but until then I just shrug and go.

I'd personally consider our foreign policy to start. But we also had airport security in place for quite a while before nine eleven that was fairly effective. I just don't think the extreme reactionary stance is so effective.
If you want to make a flight 100% safe, then you close all airports and flights.


Agreed. The more we tighten security, the more that those that want to evade security will come up with more creative ways. If someone wants to cause harm, they will figure a way to do it. It surprises me that something hasn't happened at the gates themselves yet. It is a losing battle as far as I'm concerned.

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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 3:17 pm 
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Anyone who thinks all of these security measures make us safer is ignorant or hopelessly naive. This is a very enlightening article on the uselessness of airport security: http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/arc ... ried/7057/

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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 3:27 pm 
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mollyjade wrote:
People safely ride trains in the U.S. every day without even going through a metal detector. Why is a plane so different?


Not that I don't think this whole thing is ridic and all, but trains can only go so many places and only kill so many. A plane, as we all now know, can be flown into a building occupied by millions.

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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 3:31 pm 
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This journalist not only smuggled all sorts of crazy stuff onto an airplane, he also got onto a flight using a fake boarding pass.

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/arc ... ried/7057/

I love the term "security theatre". I think this just goes to show that if a terrorist REALLY wants to get on a plane they can find a way to get on a plane.

Like pandacookie said, I think that our foreign policy needs a radical overhaul. I also think having air marshals on EVERY flight would be a lot better of an idea than virtually strip searching passengers. As of March only 1% of flights had air marshals on board ( http://www.cnn.com/2008/TRAVEL/03/25/siu.air.marshals/ ). I think the money we're spending on naked xray machines would be a lot better spent paying their salaries. Put more resources into pilot and flight attendent training programs. I'm just thinking out loud here, but I think the xray machines show a real lack of creativity and critical thinking on the part of TSA. Since it's inevetible that someone will slip through security I think the focus needs to be on how to deal with those situations.

But the idea that flying will ever be completely safe is hysterical. YOU ARE FLYING. That's kind of tempting fate.

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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 3:33 pm 
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BluePlasticStraw wrote:
Anyone who thinks all of these security measures make us safer is ignorant or hopelessly naive. This is a very enlightening article on the uselessness of airport security: http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/arc ... ried/7057/

oh, hay. you snuck that in while I was typing up my post!

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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 3:49 pm 
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BluePlasticStraw wrote:
Anyone who thinks all of these security measures make us safer is ignorant or hopelessly naive.

Bite me!

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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 3:52 pm 
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Nebraskalaska wrote:
This journalist not only smuggled all sorts of crazy stuff onto an airplane, he also got onto a flight using a fake boarding pass.

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/arc ... ried/7057/

I love the term "security theatre". I think this just goes to show that if a terrorist REALLY wants to get on a plane they can find a way to get on a plane.

Like pandacookie said, I think that our foreign policy needs a radical overhaul. I also think having air marshals on EVERY flight would be a lot better of an idea than virtually strip searching passengers. As of March only 1% of flights had air marshals on board ( http://www.cnn.com/2008/TRAVEL/03/25/siu.air.marshals/ ). I think the money we're spending on naked xray machines would be a lot better spent paying their salaries. Put more resources into pilot and flight attendent training programs. I'm just thinking out loud here, but I think the xray machines show a real lack of creativity and critical thinking on the part of TSA. Since it's inevetible that someone will slip through security I think the focus needs to be on how to deal with those situations.

But the idea that flying will ever be completely safe is hysterical. YOU ARE FLYING. That's kind of tempting fate.

That is a good idea! But can people stop calling people hysterical, naive, fat, stupid and ugly? I have a fear of flying. So sue me.

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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 3:53 pm 
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pandacookie wrote:
If you want to make a flight 100% safe, then you close all airports and flights.

I am totally down for this. I would like to see more high speed rails and eco-friendly boats.

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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 3:54 pm 
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Fee wrote:
mollyjade wrote:
People safely ride trains in the U.S. every day without even going through a metal detector. Why is a plane so different?

Not that I don't think this whole thing is ridic and all, but trains can only go so many places and only kill so many. A plane, as we all now know, can be flown into a building occupied by millions.

Yes, but security measures like limiting liquids, taking off your shoes, and not allowing nail files don't stop a person from hijacking a plane.

Edit. I realize you agree with me. I just think it's an ineffective argument.


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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 4:06 pm 
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I want to see one of these buildings that can hold millions of people! Sounds cool! And nightmarish!

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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Tue Nov 16, 2010 4:10 pm 
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Okay, sorry for exaggerating.

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