Post Punk Kitchen Forum

(NOM = National Organization for Marriage.)

I don't know how Savage* could stand to have this guy in his house. I had to leave the room where Mrs. Face was watching this video because it just got too infuriating. And the NOM guy's overwhelming persecution complex was really hard to take. As was his nonstop tone-trolling. And his arrogance-disguised-as-humble-piety. I barf on you, sir!




*Full disclosure: Dan Savage was the officiant at my wedding in 1997.

Ooh, I heard this was happening. I will at least try to watch it.

Can anyone cliffs notes this? I already know I will not be able to stomach watching it.

In a nutshell: gay people shouldn't be able to get married because, um... Well, as the bible says... And also, one man and one woman is special and everyone knows it!

Oh! And stop beating up on the people who want to bar gays from marriage! You're hurting our feelings!

I think Dan Savage showed remarkable restraint by not lunging across the table and throttling Brown. Lard knows I wanted to jump through the screen and smack him.

Seriously, the lack of logic on the part of people like Brian Brown never ceases to amaze me. He can see that it would make no sense to legislate against divorce, despite his own religious beliefs against it, but he can't take the same logical leap when it comes to marriage equality. Folks like this remind me of the people who get up in arms because a university opens up one measly vegan dining hall, but still has twenty dining halls that serve meat. Dog forbid we become more inclusive. That might threaten your hegemony.

I watched the whole thing earlier this week, and was hoping they would tape the rest of the conversation! Dan was totally just getting started.

Thanks for posting this Footface, I finally got around to watching it.

You’re synopsis is dead on, so I don’t have much to add there, but still, it was useful to hear out Brain Brown’s “arguments.”

Debating religious scripture with apologists is almost always a big waste of time but at some point the non-believer has to engage in these Biblical details and wind up poking holes in Jello. Secularists point to the contradictions in the Bible as a weakness, but it’s really its strength since it can be used to support any perspective.

Anyway, my favorite the bit when Dan Savage said that gay marriage is reality in Canada and elsewhere, the Brain Brown retorted that no, that’s not reality because that conflicts with what he has made up in his mind.

Formal debates in front of an audience tend to lead to grandstanding and point scoring, but a dinner table chat is a nice format for this sort of thing, I wouldn't mind if some other opposing advocates picked up on it.

Things like this makes me so mixed, because Savage is a dickweed who thinks bisexuals don't exist and are just cowards too afraid to come out of the closet, and is very transphobic. You could film a similar video with him being a dick to a trans* person.

i think savage has made some statements in the past which he later apologized for and clarified in favor of the bi and trans communities. he regularly has bi and trans advocates on his podcast as experts to comment and help the callers.

If he has to repeatedly apologize, is he really sorry or motivated to change? Dude might not mind bi women but he sure as shiitake doesn't like bi men and has said so repeatedly.

I have said offensive things without meaning to and been called out more than once. I am motivated to change, but sometimes my old conditioning (like assuming that someone is straight or using the "wrong" pronoun) kicks in.

Also, I didn't think the video was "Dan Savage being a dick" I thought he was allowing Brown to state his arguments and letting those arguments be judged on their own (lack of) merit.

But yeah, Dan Savage can be a dick. Lots of his anti-vegan jokes are stupid.

But do you continue to be a bigot? he still denies being biphobic and does the whole "some of my best friends are bi" thing, but at the same time keeps going on about how horrible bisexual people are.

I know thats not the content of the video, but the hypocrisy gets to me and it still depresses me that he's a celebrated head of the (white, cisgender) gay rights movement.

Well, that is a different assertion :) I am not trying to defend Dan Savage, who is by all accounts a bit of a dick (esp to vegans :) ). My response just was to you saying that:



As someone who has had to apologize more than once for being a crasshole inadvertently and keeps learning (I hope!) from her idiotic blunders.

He also talks about vulvas and vaginas in really disparaging and, frankly, misogynistic ways.

Right, I should have worded that better! What I mean to say is he keeps doing the same things over and over, apologizes (but in a very non-apology, tone policing way) and then keeps being extremely hurtful, I very much doubt his sincerity. Totally different from awesome people who are trying to deconstruct their various privileges.

And he is fat-phobic and has said things that are on the edge of being a rape apologist.

dan savage has unfortunate blind spots, as i imagine many people do (i don't know anything about the rape-apologist stuff, so i'm not considering that), but as far as this particular argument is concerned, i agree with him completely. to me, the depressing part of this discourse, and others like it, is that both sides are speaking their whole truths. brown believes that his interpretation of scripture is valid and right and that he understands the true nature of humanity, and that he is being respectful of other views in spite of that, and even that he is the persecuted party in many respects. that seems outrageous to me, but this conversation went on for an hour, and he wasn't moved a millimeter by the end of it. he will not be moved. he is just as offended by the opposing argument as we are. i don't know how we as a society make progress if this exact sort of exchange doesn't take place, but i watch this exact exchange take place over and over in all kinds of forums and always see two parties becoming ever more entrenched in their original views, and i don't know what to do. i guess it's why i spend so much time here; you all seem so reasonable compared to those 3D weirdos (go ahead and call me dimensionalist, i don't even care).

i think the guy takes on some really controversial topics, but i think he addresses the individual situations with as educated of an opinion as he can-- and sometimes that educated opinion is simply how he feels because it's his syndicated sex and love advice column/ podcast after all. i'm inclined to believe some of you are listening and hearing what you want to hear, i.e. dan savage is an anti-bi bigot with other reprehensible views. but what do i know. i like listening to his podcast and i feel it's helped me learn to better relate to whatever love and sex relationships i encounter.

but i am glad he was able to have brian brown over to his house like that. although i'm not sure anyone learned anything from the experience. it's hard to have a rational argument or conversation with someone who denies whichever aspects of reality he wishes.

Why does it make more sense to assume that a large number of people* are "hearing what they want to hear" than that there are places where he has blindspots and bigoted opinions?

*Google Dan Savage and biphobia or fatphobia or misogyny.

Sometimes I feel like society is accepting its not okay to be homophobic towards cis white gay men, but transphobia, biphobia, fatphobia and misogyny are just honest mistakes and forgivable "blind spots" rather than hatred and bigotry.

You bet. Because white, male privilege is a powerful thing. Have you read anything about homonationalism and queer assimilation? I can recommend a few things if you'd like.

i just kinda think he used to say anti bi things and other stuff that pissed me off too and lately he's realized how wrong he was and he seems to be doing his best not to do that. but that's just my experience.

I googled (cuz j-dub said to, and she has never steered me wrong). Here is something Dan said in June 2011. Bisexuals you need to come out now! Victim blaming flicks the weasel.