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 Post subject: Re: Honey?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 6:38 am 
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ashley wrote:
Sometimes I kick puppies in the face. Is that not vegan?

Well, I've never seen a PETA poster specifically against kicking puppies in the face but I think this is one of those subjects that vegans are divided on.

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 Post subject: Re: Honey?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 12:24 pm 
Calls "cavemen" on that
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When I first went 'vegan' I was not 100% vegan. Didn't even call myself vegan. I just cut out eggs and dairy. Still ate honey, still ate cereal and stuff with the D vitamins (from animal sources).

But as time progressed, I did more research, found more substitutes and eventually cut those out of my diet as well (took around….9 months or so?)

Point to the original poster is that for me, as with many vegans, it is a process. It took time to get to where I am (no honey, no leather etc). If you are going to eat honey, perhaps this is part of a process for you as well. I think a lot of us were pretty easygoing with the honey at first. As someone else suggested, do some research, check out some old threads on it here or other messageboards. There are some pretty passionate discussions on this. But yeah, be prepared for some people to call you out on your ‘vegan-ness’ if you eat honey.

That is why I try not to get upset at 'vegans' that still do honey etc. I think that it is part of the journey for them. I don’t equate it to eating chicken, or milk. But it is a slippery slope, and discussions can get really heated.

Also, I read in a magazine a few years ago (vegetarian times I think?) that had some stats on US vegans and vegetarians. It said (and I am guessing/remembering here) that about 6% of Americans were vegetarian, and 1% were vegan. If you took honey out of the equation, then the number of vegans went up to 2 or 3%. I thought that was really interesting. Does anyone have a link to this study? I can’t find it anywhere!


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 Post subject: Re: Honey?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 12:41 pm 
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Chicki wrote:
When I first went 'vegan' I was not 100% vegan. Didn't even call myself vegan. I just cut out eggs and dairy. Still ate honey, still ate cereal and stuff with the D vitamins (from animal sources).

But as time progressed, I did more research, found more substitutes and eventually cut those out of my diet as well (took around….9 months or so?)..........

That is why I try not to get upset at 'vegans' that still do honey etc. I think that it is part of the journey for them. I don’t equate it to eating chicken, or milk. But it is a slippery slope, and discussions can get really heated.


i've only been a vegan for a couple of months now, and i definitely agree it is a journey. especially since being vegan isn't just about the diet, it's sooo much more. a small example, our shampoo and conditioner finally ran out so i replaced it with loreal who has 'vegan' on their bottles claiming no animal testing and no animal ingredients, yay!

i'm not 100% vegan as i do still on occasion eat raw, local honey. and i do eat foods fortified with vitamin D which i know come from animal sources, for example my soy milk. vitamin D is in many "processed" foods. i suppose this could be a whole other discussion topic, and i certainly don't mean to veer intentionally off topic, but i wonder how others feel about the vitamin D in foods either naturally or enriched? is this something you go out of your way to avoid and seek out substitutes for?

my doc prescribed me vitamin D and i'm waiting for my bottle to run out before i switch to vitamin D2, a vegan D3, or just get the same ol bottle of vitamin D.

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 Post subject: Re: Honey?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 12:45 pm 
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bookwormbethie wrote:
and i do eat foods fortified with vitamin D which i know come from animal sources, for example my soy milk. vitamin D is in many "processed" foods. i suppose this could be a whole other discussion topic, and i certainly don't mean to veer intentionally off topic, but i wonder how others feel about the vitamin D in foods either naturally or enriched? is this something you go out of your way to avoid and seek out substitutes for?


I don't think there are any soy milks in the U.S. anyway that are fortified with nonvegan vitamin D. 8th Continent used to have D3 but doesn't anymore. Other products, like cereals, are a different story.

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 Post subject: Re: Honey?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 1:26 pm 
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I think of honey as bee barf....like a whole bottle of honey must have come from a bee fraternity kegger or something.

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 Post subject: Re: Honey?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 1:27 pm 
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I do avoid honey, and vitamin D3, for as far as possible since I consider them to be animal products. I do consider it to be important for other vegans to be aware of this, just because i wouldn't want to be served something as vegan that had those ingredients in them, if I can avoid it. I'm not looking at the issue from a vegan-police type perspective at all, but I do think it's important for the standards to be there, just so people are as clear as possible about what the definitions are. Obviously in practice there are gonna be mistakes or whatever, shiitake happens.

and I would never call someone out for eating honey or D3 though, absolutely not.

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 Post subject: Re: Honey?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 1:37 pm 
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bookwormbethie wrote:
i wonder how others feel about the vitamin D in foods either naturally or enriched? is this something you go out of your way to avoid and seek out substitutes for?

yeah, the production of wool is pretty much always horrible, so D3 is definitely a no for me.
the only mainstream cereals i would buy are special K (not fortified with D) and in the past, i would get quaker cereals, but in the past year or so, i've seen them use D3 in some of their newer cereals. even some natural brands aren't safe from the D3. lately i've just been doing the oatmeal thing, or generic puffed wheat.

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 Post subject: Re: Honey?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 1:43 pm 
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I have eaten honey on occasion as an ingredient in packaged foods when there were no other suitable alternatives for something (like everything else contained meat or dairy.) Generally speaking I try to avoid it, however I don't feel like there's anything to be gained from policing/bullying people who eat diets that are inclusive of honey but otherwise vegan. At the same time, I wouldn't serve a dish containing honey and call it "vegan" because I know a lot of people consider honey to be a non-vegan product.


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 Post subject: Re: Honey?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 1:54 pm 
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I am about to make a stand even more controversial than my decision to not care very much about whether I eat honey or not:

I don't think agave nectar tastes anything like honey.

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 Post subject: Re: Honey?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 1:58 pm 
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This is where you guys are like "Gasp!" and then *murmurmurmurmurmur*.

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 Post subject: Re: Honey?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 1:59 pm 
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DANG HE WENT THERE!

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 Post subject: Re: Honey?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 2:00 pm 
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mumbles wrote:
I am about to make a stand even more controversial than my decision to not care very much about whether I eat honey or not:

I don't think agave nectar tastes anything like honey.

OH MY GAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

Actually, I don't think they taste alike either. But they are both sticky and thick so I think agave does the trick fine in most cases.


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 Post subject: Re: Honey?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 2:03 pm 
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But agave isn't nearly as thick as honey!

I will grant you this much: agave kind of looks like honey in the bottle. And it is sweet.

I will grant no more than this!

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 Post subject: Re: Honey?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 2:06 pm 
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I'm pretty sure I have a jar of honey in the cupboard. It's been there a loooooong time. Can't remember the last time I used it. I do love me some brown rice syrup, though.


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 Post subject: Re: Honey?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 2:08 pm 
Calls "cavemen" on that
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supercarrot wrote:
bookwormbethie wrote:
i wonder how others feel about the vitamin D in foods either naturally or enriched? is this something you go out of your way to avoid and seek out substitutes for?

yeah, the production of wool is pretty much always horrible, so D3 is definitely a no for me.
the only mainstream cereals i would buy are special K (not fortified with D) and in the past, i would get quaker cereals, but in the past year or so, i've seen them use D3 in some of their newer cereals. even some natural brands aren't safe from the D3. lately i've just been doing the oatmeal thing, or generic puffed wheat.


Not to thread-jack (but I totally am), Special K is vegan? Honestly, I just stay away from cereal now, since I just figure that it is always bad D fortified. If not, that is awesome. I always liked Special K.


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 Post subject: Re: Honey?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 2:11 pm 
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oops! i meant to say special K red berries. (i think the general special K has D.)

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 Post subject: Re: Honey?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 2:58 pm 
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Mr. Shankly wrote:
ashley wrote:
Sometimes I kick puppies in the face. Is that not vegan?

Well, I've never seen a PETA poster specifically against kicking puppies in the face but I think this is one of those subjects that vegans are divided on.

Interesting. I will wait and hear from PETA before I take an ethical stance on this issue.

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 Post subject: Re: Honey?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 3:11 pm 
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I don't even like honey, so it was a bit of a no-brainer. However, I have let it slide a few times in bread when the only other alternatives were dairy or slaughter byproducts. I hold my food to a super strict standard if I'm feeding other vegans, but let a few trace ingredients slide on occasion if it's just me. For recipes that call for honey, I use Suzanne's Just Like Honey (rice nectar.) It smells like honey and it does the trick taste-wise, which I really don't think agave does.

But, even though puppies would totally kick me in the face it they had a chance, I don't condone or practice puppy face-kicking.

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 Post subject: Re: Honey?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 3:23 pm 
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The grossness factor of honey as bee vomit (or cheese as molded bodily fluid) has no hold on me. Hello, I eat natto.

I do believe, however, that the large scale, for-profit production of honey is not generally helpful to maintaining diverse, healthy populations of bees and contributing to natural pollination. I've tried to look for sources on that but I'm drunk.
I might consider some artisanal honey ethically neutral - like where someone is basically beekeeping for fun and just incidentally producing honey. Then again I don't care enough about honey to actively seek out that kind of product.


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 Post subject: Re: Honey?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 3:29 pm 
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Helix wrote:
I think its so hard to decide, the honey in itself is not an animal product, but you can talk about the ethical aspect of keeping/using animals.
At the same time, I think it's important to support natural pollination.

As of right now I eat locally produced honey. Does this make me a "fake" vegan?

Honey is an animal product since bees are animals and make it for their larva. I just read an article about one of the things that might be killing bees off--by reducing their immunity to other parasites/illnesses--is the practice of feeding them high fructose corn syrup over the winter (since we take their honey). I like the vignette given earlier about someone stealing your Thanksgiving dinner, because that's what we're doing to bees' babies. Also here in the U.S. I've read that the "kept" bees--mostly of European stock--may actually be making it difficult for wild bees (of many sizes and varieties) to survive and thrive. I definitely don't think you're a "fake" vegan, though I avoid honey if at all possible because it is an animal product and causes bee suffering. However, I have on occasion bought cereals with D3 in them (though only rarely) or where the source of D was not listed (which probably means D3), so I agree that being 100% vegan is unlikely. I also know that some wouldn't consider me a vegan because I still feed my companion animals, especially my cat (who's on Rx food), non-vegan food. Just do your best and keep learning:)

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 Post subject: Re: Honey?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 3:32 pm 
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I really don't care too much about the ethical implications of eating honey. They're f'n bees. However, I don't eat honey ever because honey is by definition NOT vegan and it's ridiculously easy to avoid. If you're going to do something do it right. Avoiding honey is doing vegan right.

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 Post subject: Re: Honey?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 3:55 pm 
Calls "cavemen" on that
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supercarrot wrote:
oops! i meant to say special K red berries. (i think the general special K has D.)


Oh awesome. That was my favorite! End thread jack.

Oh, I won't put honey on it. So I guess I related it back to the original topic.


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 Post subject: Re: Honey?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 4:00 pm 
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IsaChandra wrote:
DANG HE WENT THERE!

Mumbles is the bad boy of the PPK.

(will I get detention for agreeing with him?)

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 Post subject: Re: Honey?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 4:02 pm 
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I never ate anything but trace amounts of honey prior to being vegan so obviously not a big change. I've made mistakes in the past in buying bread which has honey in it but it is something I'd generally avoid. Although things get hazy in the insect realm for me, bees are generally a good thing and there are good alternatives to honey so really no reason to include it in my diet. I don't claim to be the best vegan there is so there is also that :)

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 Post subject: Re: Honey?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 4:42 pm 
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strawberryrock wrote:
bookwormbethie wrote:
and i do eat foods fortified with vitamin D which i know come from animal sources, for example my soy milk. vitamin D is in many "processed" foods. i suppose this could be a whole other discussion topic, and i certainly don't mean to veer intentionally off topic, but i wonder how others feel about the vitamin D in foods either naturally or enriched? is this something you go out of your way to avoid and seek out substitutes for?


I don't think there are any soy milks in the U.S. anyway that are fortified with nonvegan vitamin D. 8th Continent used to have D3 but doesn't anymore. Other products, like cereals, are a different story.


just checked, my plain enriched soy dream has vitamin D. soy dream does make a non-enriched version

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