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 Post subject: Re: The Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:13 am 
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 Post subject: Re: The Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:23 am 
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I do have to be impressed by Romney's handlers though. My impression on the conversation: "if the VP candidate can mislead people aka lie through his convention speech and people let him get away with it, why not have Romney do the same thing at the debate? Just say it with conviction and nobody cares if it's true or not. Obama won't know how to counter random lies off the top of his head"


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 Post subject: Re: The Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:26 am 
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Sure, when you pull back (way back), Obama and Romney are very similar. Neither of them will push for any radical, left-wing reforms. Neither will be a visionary leader striving to remake the world and eliminate evil. Both will be beholden to special interests to a degree. Both will be impeded by a congress with its own agendas. Capitalism will prevail, and money will speak the loudest.

But when you look at things on a more human scale, you've gotta see there are important differences between these two guys.

Reproductive rights, marriage equality, the distribution of wealth, health care... None of those make a dent?

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 Post subject: Re: The Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 11:33 am 
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I'm not watching any debates, not sure if I ever have but I've already made my choice. I don't think Obama is the greatest choice in the world but I see nothing positive coming from Romney being president. In the last election, we already saw the country voting in those that were pandering to the tea party and having him in office would only make it worse. The economy has made people scared and I think that is why we saw the upheaval last time. I'm hoping people will see that things are turning around and vote not out of fear but of what they think is best for this country.

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 Post subject: Re: The Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:00 pm 
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Linanil, I feel very much the same as you although I did watch the debate. I have kids in middle school who really should be watching the election for their classes even though both of them were bored and just wishing Romney would "shut up and stop lying". (direct quote from the youngest). I think the assessment that Romney won the debate is that he was louder and browbeat both the moderator and the president. If he was hoping to increase his likablity with anything other than the Republican base I see that as an epic fail. Most of the progressive talking heads were in a lather that Obama did go into smack down mode but quite frankly that is not really his style and not something most people look for in a leader. I don't think many people look for the angriest guy in the room to help them in a crisis. So I think that is why you can see things like CNN's poll which showed that the majority of the people in their little "undecided" voter room thought Romney won the debate. When they asked specifically if they now had decided on who to vote for 8 said they would vote for Romney 8 said they would vote for Obama. I suspect that was their leaning before the debate. Talk Radio and Cable TV makes most of the political discourse in this country sound like a shouting match where the loudest person wins. I hope that is not the characteristic people look for in a leader.

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 Post subject: Re: The Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:45 pm 
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I thought Romney looked way more likable than he has for a long time. Which, I guess, isn't saying much, as there's nothing too likable about truculent robots.

But to me, he was charming and hungry. He jumped on everything like it was his chance to tell everyone The Truth. He had answers, proposals, and criticisms. He looked like he came to play. Obama looked and sounded tired.

I agree, this isn't how we should inform ourselves. But if you are a low-information voter, and you tuned in to see what was up with these two candidates, I can't believe you would have turned the debate off thinking, "That Romney guy is a lying jerk."

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 Post subject: Re: The Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 12:58 pm 
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i just saw this on fb and literally always spewed my lunch all over my monitor laughing

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 Post subject: Re: The Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:14 pm 
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Just read an article that made the case that Romney was playing a democrat last night. And he did! How many times did he say "Obama and I agree on this". TOTALLY different person than he was a few weeks ago at the RNC. I'm glad the economy debate is over and that we can now go on to domestic issues foreign policy because these are things that speak to me more (call me selfish if you like. I went through the entire recession employed and make more money now than I did in 2008). I think abortion and gay marriage are big ones. Iran is another.

Speaking of Iran, Romney accuses Obama of not being harder on Iran but I just read that the value of Iranian currency dropped like 40% as a result of US sanctions. Pretty effin hard if you ask me and a lot cheaper than war.

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 Post subject: Re: The Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:28 pm 
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i think what he meant is that Obama didnt drop a giant bomb on Iran.
these wussy sanctions dont equal giant bombs!

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 Post subject: Re: The Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:55 pm 
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FootFace wrote:
I thought Romney looked way more likable than he has for a long time. Which, I guess, isn't saying much, as there's nothing too likable about truculent robots.

But to me, he was charming and hungry. He jumped on everything like it was his chance to tell everyone The Truth. He had answers, proposals, and criticisms. He looked like he came to play. Obama looked and sounded tired.

I agree, this isn't how we should inform ourselves. But if you are a low-information voter, and you tuned in to see what was up with these two candidates, I can't believe you would have turned the debate off thinking, "That Romney guy is a lying jerk."

It's interesting cause this definitely seems to be a gender thing. Most males I have discussed this with were impressed by Romney's performance. Most females I discussed it with thought he was a smarmy, entitled asparagus. Obama did seem tired but he is well liked in general so didn't need that as much.

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 Post subject: Re: The Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 1:56 pm 
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Well, duh! It's against the Qu'ran for Obama to kill another muslim.

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 Post subject: Re: The Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 2:12 pm 
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unethical_vegan wrote:
i don't undestand the interest in the debates or the election in general. the red team and the blue team are flip sides of the same MIC coin. and i predict that as soon as obamney gets re-elected he will go bowling and simpsoning after the last vestiges of the new deal that remain in this pathetic tin pot banana republic.


Its so privileged to say that it doesn't matter who gets elected bc the GOP and Dems are the same. Maybe the impact on white, male, middle-class voters is the same no matter who wins, but it is absolutely not the same for people who are marginalized - women, the elderly, the unemployed, people of color.

It matters for anyone (including me) who is worried about a shifting balance on the SCOTUS (RBG retires in 2015 if she makes it that long), which is already set to end affirmative action in higher education (while of course still allowing legacies to be given preferential consideration), who wants equal access to civil rights for same sex couples, who wants the new health care law to set parameters and give individual consumers some bargaining power so we can buy insurance at a reasonable rate and not be bankrupted by an illness or hospitalization, who want to know that our elderly will be able to afford to eat, get medical care and other support without it falling solely on their families, who wants all women to be able to make their own healthcare decisions, who thinks that children brought here illegally should have a right to stay, study and work, or who thinks separation of Church and state is a good thing, who thinks worker safety and the environment is important etc. If you don't need it for yourself, think about others.

I think every citizen has a responsibility to get informed and vote for the person who represents your interests. And for women, that isn't going to be for the guy who thinks that you should get paid 77% of what a man gets paid, fights to make sure that insurance companies can continue to drop you if you get sick and thinks its perfectly fine if you and your children have no health coverage, or thinks that your right to make decisions about your body end when you might be pregnant or thinks that turning Medicare into vouchers is going to guarantee seniors the same level of care and protections on the open market that they currently have. Women are disproportionately the caregivers for the most vulnerable in society - children, the disabled, seniors and they are the ones most often living in poverty. For them, for us, a president who will restore some sort of social net below which we will not let people fall is essential. And say what you will, Obama fought hard for healthcare reform, isn't proposing cutting medicare/medicaid or making it a voucher program, and he signed the Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act among other laws that help women. Oh and repealed DADT.

If you want to know what a GOP presidency will be like, look at the states they control. Florida is proposing to amend its state constitution so that (1) the privacy right will no longer protect abortion and (2) the state can fund churches and other religious institutions. And no, Florida isn't doing really well with either the economy or jobs. And even here, in the great state of NJ our GOP governor slashed all funding for women's health from the budget, even if that meant turning down free Federal money. http://www.politifact.com/new-jersey/st ... g-funding/

So please don't say that they're just two sides of one coin, because that is ignorant.

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 Post subject: Re: The Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 5:14 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: The Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 5:59 pm 
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FootFace wrote:
...Neither of them will push for any radical, left-wing reforms...Reproductive rights, marriage equality, the distribution of wealth, health care... None of those make a dent?


*The USA does not have a left wing...PERIOD. Even the dwindling democratic wing of the democratic party is centrist at best.
*Democrat votes confirmed our current SC justices ...just sayin'...
*There are no same sex marriage rights on the federal level.

The democratic party is arguably a worse actor than the republican party when it comes to social equity. Democrats led the charge to deregulate our financial, insurance, and banking industries (the corporate citizens who now run this nation). The evisceration of depression era financial firewalls has been a democratic issue (FSOB and Gramm-Leach-Bliley). The democrats also led the push to deregulate derivative and complex financial instruments (CFMA). And it was that motherfrackinga-hole, William Jefferson Clinton, who destroyed welfare as we know it. But even I did not expect our reagan-loving POS of a POTUS to pick Rubin, Summers, and Orszag to run his economic policy. Talk about letting the foxes run the hen house. To be blunt, I fully expect Obama to end social security as we know it during his next term (by not indexing to CPI, continuously raising the retirement age, and opening up FICA withholding to private retirement accounts).


Last edited by unethical_vegan on Thu Oct 04, 2012 6:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 6:07 pm 
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unethical_vegan wrote:
]The USA does not have a left wing...PERIOD. Even the dwindling democratic wing of the democratic party is centrist at best.


I think this is true, and yet, I will always vote for the candidate who is pro-choice, who I think will work to get DOMA overturned, and who is responsible for me having health insurance right now. Because I might need access to abortion at some point and many of my friends certainly have and will, because I might want to marry and raise children with a woman some day, and because I have a bunch of health problems I could not afford to deal with otherwise. Those are such obvious differences that directly affect my life. Romney and Obama are not the same. I think Obama is so far from perfect, but I feel very confident in saying he's the better choice.

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 Post subject: Re: The Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 6:44 pm 
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I know we don't have a left wing. And I'm hardly Bill Clinton's (or anyone's) biggest fan.

I still say Romney and Bush and Reagan (for instance) are a shitload worse than Clinton and Obama.

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 Post subject: Re: The Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 7:32 pm 
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Tofulish wrote:
The VP debates are next. Bring it Biden! Oh God.


Yeah, pretty much. Ryan, for all his faults, is pretty slick. Biden, for all his faults, is a goofball. I like Biden, but he can't be counted on to make sense at the debate. Or, he could knock it out of the park if his endearing goofball-ness translates well.

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 Post subject: Re: The Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 7:39 pm 
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As far as it mattering who is elected: SCOTUS.

Pretty much anything either of them do in 4 years can be overturned or fixed except SCOTUS. We already have Thomas and Scalito, so there are three who will always all but slide off the right side of the bench. Then we have a couple moderates. I include Roberts here because I've never been convinced he is as conservative as people think. I also think he will mellow over time. He doesn't overly concern me, especially with a moderate court.

But, with such a dangerous balance, the next couple of justices will map out social change in this country for the next decades. Ginsberg has cancer; she won't stay on the bench another 4.

That's what this election comes down to for me. I don't have to adore everything Obama says and does, but I do not want Romney nominating lifetime SCOTUS members.

I am so scared that Allen is going to win the Virginia senate race. I am not someone who donates to political campaigns, but I just donated $5 to Kaine.

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 Post subject: Re: The Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 7:46 pm 
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strawberryrock wrote:
unethical_vegan wrote:
]The USA does not have a left wing...PERIOD. Even the dwindling democratic wing of the democratic party is centrist at best.


I think this is true, and yet, I will always vote for the candidate who is pro-choice, who I think will work to get DOMA overturned, and who is responsible for me having health insurance right now. Because I might need access to abortion at some point and many of my friends certainly have and will, because I might want to marry and raise children with a woman some day, and because I have a bunch of health problems I could not afford to deal with otherwise. Those are such obvious differences that directly affect my life. Romney and Obama are not the same. I think Obama is so far from perfect, but I feel very confident in saying he's the better choice.


Its certainly easier to vote for (the lesser of two) evil(s) when you might benefit. While it would be nice to overturn DOMA, I fiercely believe that there are other issues (that do not affect me directly) that are more important. The trillions we spend back-stopping the filthy rich and the lawless brutality with which we slaughter other human beings are two examples.


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 Post subject: Re: The Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:08 pm 
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Guys, it doesn't sound like you're going to change any minds about the importance of voting. So this is my mod hat saying, don't sweat it. Most of us see it as important and this conversation doesn't need to become about that, just because one person has a different opinion.

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 Post subject: Re: The Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:26 pm 
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gwenc02 wrote:
I'm awaiting the fact checkers right now. There were several things Romney said that were blatantly false.. and I don't just mean him backtracking on things he'd previously said, I mean numbers and statements that are empirically and demonstrably false. Saying that the US healthcare system has the best health outcomes is just so delusionally wrong that I nearly fell out of my chair because I couldn't believe he'd have the balls to say something so ridiculous. That was one of the big ones that jumped out to me.

I definitely yelled "you're a giant forking crasshole!" at the tv a few times.

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 Post subject: Re: The Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:32 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: The Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:52 pm 
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Oh, Jim.

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 Post subject: Re: The Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 9:30 pm 
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Let’s be honest; both candidates repeatedly went over their time and also, at one point or another, talked over the moderator in order to finish a thought.

But I’ve never seen anyone completely lose any kind of manners about it and simply refuse to let the moderator speak like Mitt Romney. No matter what the situation was, Romney took every opportunity to get his way; reminiscent of a child.

All in all, Jim Lehrer was simply a horrible moderator; he was unable to assert himself or give his presence a clear point. He even agreed that he did poorly, there at the end.


Romney, though, made the entire debate a spectacle of projection (trickle-down government? Really) and smirked, spoke aggressively (punctuating lies needs enunciation), and openly laughed derisively. He simply acted like a bully. After the fact checkers are done dissecting him, maybe that smirk’ll get wiped off of his face. I doubt it, though; he’s trained as a corporate actor.

Romney’s cool mask seems to be dissolving. He can’t seem to keep his anger or attitude in check. Instead, he loudly asserts falsities perhaps in the hope that they’ll become true or maybe (most likely) he hopes that people will mindlessly repeat them while calling Obama a liar for pointing out the holes in his logic.

This man, this intensely dislikable (did you see his smile?) and arrogant man, resumes himself to be above the rules, above the facts, and above any kind of decency. He made sure to get himself as much camera time as possible.

Can a man that’s never been middle class really understand the plight? Does he know what it takes to help? His company — the one he touts all his business experience from — made its money by tearing apart other companies and sending jobs overseas.

Let’s act like adults, candidates.

http://www.addictinginfo.org/2012/10/03 ... he-debate/

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 Post subject: Re: The Debate Thread
PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 6:40 am 
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