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 Post subject: Re: Sweet dreams (advice/questions about kid sleep)
PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 11:41 pm 
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Ariann wrote:
I have so little tolerance for trying to make babies sleep. An hour trying for a nap seems like a giant waste of time to me.

I think we're going to finally set up our second bedroom this weekend to accommodate Malka sleeping in it. She's now pretty regularly sleeping all the way through the night and she goes to bed on her own (except for tonight, when she was a maniac and tried to climb out of the bed and it didn't end well).


Yeah, it probably is a waste overall. The problem is mainly that both his older brother and I are in the routine now too. At M's naptime, E chills out and looks at books etcetera while we play M's sleepy music and I walk him around in the Ergo, pump milk and check my email on my phone etc. (This sounds stressful but it's very relaxing multitasking.) When M was regularly falling asleep after 10-15 minutes of this (about as long as I need to pump), then E and I could have one on one hangout time.

No morning nap = no natural time for me to sit still and pump without two people climbing all over me trying to play with the pump, plus no guaranteed daily one on one time with E.

But on the other hand, it's not like I can make him sleep if he's not going to sleep. I'm doing everything that gets him to fall asleep if he's sleepy. I guess he's just not sleepy at this point anymore, which is not really something I can control. So, you know. I can keep doing something that's not working and hope it'll start working again (which does seem unlikely) or I can give up and do something else.

The PPK is so helpful in helping me think through these things.

ETA: Also, that is awesome that Malka is sleeping so well now!

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 Post subject: Re: Sweet dreams (advice/questions about kid sleep)
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 3:18 am 
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I'm transitioning the kids into their own room, so I can have the bed (Japanese futon) to myself and the n00b in 7+ months time. Mr Crabby and Beetroot are sleeping in the other room and once they are used to that, I'm going to try to add Raygold to the mix, although that probably won't happen for a few more months. I'd say most of the time, Beetroot makes it through the night and doesn't end up with me and Raygold until at least 6am and maybe half the time, he sleeps in past when Raygold and I do! (Mr. Crabby sleeps in.)

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 Post subject: Re: Sweet dreams (advice/questions about kid sleep)
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 4:06 pm 
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So, we're starting out slowly it seems, heh. Last night two awakenings, the second of which (about 11, after a 7:30ish bedtime) morphed into "awake time" after the rocker recliner starting squeaking like mad. Thought about battling her back to sleep but she was *wide* awake in her bed and playing. After a few minutes, she was complaining, wanting to get out. So we came down and played, happily for a half hour or so and then went to sleep in the big bed as I was exhausted at midnight having had no daytime sleep (had some things to do).

Tonight, planned on trying again, but the spray we used lubricate the chair stinks to high heaven. We had the windows open for something like 4 hours but it was still kinda funky. I didn't want to leave her in their overnight. It's much better than earlier in the afternoon, so a good airing tomorrow should take care of it.

wrt routines/schedules, I think it's natural to enjoy them to a certain degree. That's what our babies do after all right? F does much better if we have lunch near the same time, pappa comes home around the same time, etc. I was just talking about this with K because I'm really loathe to change up her naps in the daytime yet. She sleeps well (well, "well" for her) most days. Two naps, each about an hour and a half, usually with a boobie break in the middle there somewhere. There's an approach to the new bed, new room scenario that involves baby sleeping in there just for naps and then adding in nighttime sleep later, but I want to hang on to the part of her sleep schedule that sorta works for us (I can sleep in the mornings some, and relax in the afternoon or do tasks on the phone...pay bills, etc.)


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 Post subject: Re: Sweet dreams (advice/questions about kid sleep)
PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 12:58 pm 
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coldandsleepy wrote:
Ariann wrote:
I have so little tolerance for trying to make babies sleep. An hour trying for a nap seems like a giant waste of time to me.

I think we're going to finally set up our second bedroom this weekend to accommodate Malka sleeping in it. She's now pretty regularly sleeping all the way through the night and she goes to bed on her own (except for tonight, when she was a maniac and tried to climb out of the bed and it didn't end well).


Yeah, it probably is a waste overall. The problem is mainly that both his older brother and I are in the routine now too. At M's naptime, E chills out and looks at books etcetera while we play M's sleepy music and I walk him around in the Ergo, pump milk and check my email on my phone etc. (This sounds stressful but it's very relaxing multitasking.) When M was regularly falling asleep after 10-15 minutes of this (about as long as I need to pump), then E and I could have one on one hangout time.

No morning nap = no natural time for me to sit still and pump without two people climbing all over me trying to play with the pump, plus no guaranteed daily one on one time with E.

But on the other hand, it's not like I can make him sleep if he's not going to sleep. I'm doing everything that gets him to fall asleep if he's sleepy. I guess he's just not sleepy at this point anymore, which is not really something I can control. So, you know. I can keep doing something that's not working and hope it'll start working again (which does seem unlikely) or I can give up and do something else.

The PPK is so helpful in helping me think through these things.

ETA: Also, that is awesome that Malka is sleeping so well now!


Yeah - schedules are hard to let go of. We got lucky in that Malka gave up her later nap rather than her earlier one. This was good because Mr. A doesn't get anything accomplished until after the morning nap and now he still has plenty of time to do fun things with her in the afternoon.

The current trade-off with sleeping through the night is that she's getting a little harder to put down at night - she has a serious hissy fit as we approach bed, which is annoying.


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 Post subject: Re: Sweet dreams (advice/questions about kid sleep)
PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 4:39 pm 
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For those of you who've made the transition to a crib/solo bed for baby, what sort of routine or technique did you use? We're on our second go now, after Freya was sick last week. She slept there last night somewhat warily off/on until about 2 when I gave up (woke at 1:30 and 45 mins of nurse/dissatisfaction with the setup on her part). Tonight, knock on wood, she's been out about 1 1/2 hours so far.

We spend a lot of time in "her" room each day, playing, changing diapers, reading, nursing in the recliner, etc. She likes being in the bed even, particularly because there are some pictures on the wall next to it. She just doesn't really dig sleeping there.

Planning to just go until we can't take it any more again for the next few days, but I feel like she's really close to being able to sleep there on her own. She snuggles up against me sometimes, but very often rolls away and faces the wall when we're in bed together.


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 Post subject: Re: Sweet dreams (advice/questions about kid sleep)
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:38 am 
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It sounds like you're on the right track, refinnej.
For Beety, I just started putting him in the pack 'n' play when he was tired and I'd talk to him and play with him until he fell asleep. He was also in the same room as us, so I could just go about my business and let him play by himself in there and sometimes he would eventually just flop over and fall asleep. That didn't ever work for Raygold, as he was a magical climbing baby and escaped from the crib the first time I put him in it (1-ish?) and he has rarely fallen asleep without a boob (he would be totally weaned by now if he could fall asleep without it). Raygold still clings to me for dear life when he sleeps, too. Beety was never really like that.

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 Post subject: Re: Sweet dreams (advice/questions about kid sleep)
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 12:12 pm 
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I think we did basically what you're doing, reffinej. When he woke at night, I nursed him back to sleep in the rocker, put him back in the crib, and repeated as often as necessary, sometimes every hour. At some point, usually around 3am, I was too tired to try anymore and just got into the guest bed (in his room) with him and slept poorly until morning. It wasn't until I night weaned that he started waking less frequently, though (sorry). Now we are in a rhythm where he sleeps on his on until 4 or 5 am, I nurse him in the rocker and put him back in the crib awake, and we go back to sleep in our separate beds until he wakes for good at 6:30 or 7.

Getting him to go to sleep in the crib and night weaning involved lots of screaming and crying, but it was necessary for our mental and physical health. Only you can know when you and Freya have reached that point.


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 Post subject: Re: Sweet dreams (advice/questions about kid sleep)
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 10:26 pm 
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I'm not ready to night wean, so we put her down in the crib (in her room) until she wakes ups, usually several hours later. Sometimes she does sleep through until I need to feed her before work. Either way, I bring her back to bed with me at that point. I have no problem sleeping while she nurses, thank god, so this works for me right now.

Getting her to go to sleep in the crib took several days of crying. Given that she cries even when you're holding her when its time to go to sleep, it wasn't that bad. I figured she's crying no matter what I'm doing, she might as well be in her crib. Now that we are all more used to it, we pretty much always wear her down (in a Mei tai) and then transfer her to crib. Before she got used to it, you couldn't put her in the crib at all. She just wouldn't stay asleep.

So boring story even more boring, our routine is to wait until she is tired (yawning/rubbing eyes) and then into the carrier she goes, lights off, noise machine on, transfer to crib. We haven't gotten to the point where we can just lay her in the crib awake and expect for her to go to sleep. I don't think that will happen while nursing at night, maybe never. I can't really imagine her doing that ever! When I try to picture it, I see myself in black and white wearing a starched petticoat and a string of pearls. Not reality!

Oi. She just woke up. We keep having a poop right after she first goes down. It's so annoying cause then you've got to start all over. Good luck refinnej.


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 Post subject: Re: Sweet dreams (advice/questions about kid sleep)
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 11:40 pm 
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We haven't gotten to the point where we can just lay her in the crib awake and expect for her to go to sleep. I don't think that will happen while nursing at night, maybe never. I can't really imagine her doing that ever! When I try to picture it, I see myself in black and white wearing a starched petticoat and a string of pearls. Not reality!


This made me laugh. I will say, I was never able to lay either of my kiddos down awake when they were babies. Both were bad sleepers and needed serious night time machinations to get them to sleep. Now DD is almost 5 and bedtime consists of giving her bedtime toys and nightlight, reviewing our day, and a kiss. DS is 2.5, and he likes me to lay with him through about 10 minutes of bedtime music, and then I leave whether he is awake or asleep. It really can happen! And no pearls or petticoats necessary.


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 Post subject: Re: Sweet dreams (advice/questions about kid sleep)
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 4:27 pm 
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Thanks for the comments/advice. Mitten, this is one of the concerns we have. I've been struggling all along with sleep deprivation, but the past month or so something has really made it worse. I forget stuff all the time, my body hurts, I'm getting sick in the mornings, etc. Just really really realizing that we need to do something.

@Butternut, the "crying even when holding her" trouble is part of what's convincing me that this is the right time for us too. She does it only at naps so far, but it's a new thing, maybe 2 or 3 weeks now. Occasionally, we'd have trouble before, but now rocking/snuggling only makes her fight sleep harder. Toddlers...they're crazy.

We're mostly trying to figure out now how to work in night feedings...I really don't think she needs to feed 6x/night (der), but she maybe still could use 1-2xs. Also wondering about not making boobies the last thing before bed, but trying to work it into our routine earlier.

Tonight/last = some boobage and then fussing/wanting to get down and play (in near darkness!), ending with me laying her in the crib and setting myself in the recliner quietly next to her. Knock on wood, it's working okay so far...some fussing and shushing. When she wakes the first time though, she's hysterical.

Sooo feeling like we're right on the brink of some positive change, and that it may give us untold good things (me and K sleeping in the same bed, me actually sleeping more than 45 minutes at a time, Freya not waking from me rolling over, etc.)

Do you all do naps in the crib/bed too? I wasn't planning on this, as she sleeps super well during naps usually, but now this pain with getting her to sleep during the day makes me wonder.


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 Post subject: Re: Sweet dreams (advice/questions about kid sleep)
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 5:24 pm 
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Ohh...K just went up to attend to her as she cries and through the monitor we hear "wah wah wah Heddo? (hello))" Oh my bean.


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 Post subject: Re: Sweet dreams (advice/questions about kid sleep)
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 5:45 pm 
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Oh that is heartbreaking. So sorry nnej. <3

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 Post subject: Re: Sweet dreams (advice/questions about kid sleep)
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 6:01 pm 
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TIs okay. She got some nice cuddles. I just wish it were easier on her sometimes. She loves her room/bed/toys/pictures on the wall, etc. but when she wakes up she just gets lost in that disoriented feeling that we often have upon waking. (so stay asleep, heh)


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 Post subject: Re: Sweet dreams (advice/questions about kid sleep)
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 6:36 pm 
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I think I am screwed. L slept really badly last night (our heat went back on and she was hot and her molars are breaking through, but she isn't fussy upset, just awake and wanting to hang out) and woke up at 6:30 am. Its my birthday so I thought we'd do some fun stuff, but instead she fell asleep at 3 after lunch and has been asleep ever since. So for 3.5 hours.

I tried not to boob her last time she woke, but she was so sad. So I'll try again next time. On the plus side, I'll be up watching the results roll in, I guess.

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 Post subject: Re: Sweet dreams (advice/questions about kid sleep)
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 7:03 pm 
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Why don't you just wake her up instead of letter her nap so long so late in the day? I wake my kids up all the time if it's going to mess up bedtime. (this mama needs the alone time that bedtime allows including my husband also going to bed so i'm all alone) :)

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 Post subject: Re: Sweet dreams (advice/questions about kid sleep)
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 7:26 pm 
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Reffinej, we also reached a point where he cried and fussed at bedtime even if I held and nursed him, so it was really difficult no matter what I did. He didn't seem to take any comfort from my being there, so it made sense to let him learn to self soothe at that point. If I'm remembering right, we continued naps in my bed for a couple of months, with nights in the crib, until he just could not fall asleep in bed with me because it was more fun to wrestle.

I forgot to mention, too, that when I was trying to get him to fall back asleep in the crib without a boob (and without being picked up) I spent a lot of time laying on a mat next to his crib, reaching my arm through the bars. He likes to put his hand as far up inside my sleeve as it will go and rub my arm (???), and once he got over his rage/disappointment, he would settle for that.

Speaking of self-soothing, last night about ten minutes after I left Walter's room I heard him--all alone in the dark--going through his catalog of animal sounds at the top of his lungs. "BAAA! MEEOW, MEEOW! MOOOOOOOOO!" Doesn't sound relaxing to me, but hey, whatever works.


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 Post subject: Re: Sweet dreams (advice/questions about kid sleep)
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2012 11:10 pm 
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JENNA wrote:
Why don't you just wake her up instead of letter her nap so long so late in the day? I wake my kids up all the time if it's going to mess up bedtime. (this mama needs the alone time that bedtime allows including my husband also going to bed so i'm all alone) :)

Whenever I wake mine up she just cries and cries...I always regret it. It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.

mittenmacher wrote:

Speaking of self-soothing, last night about ten minutes after I left Walter's room I heard him--all alone in the dark--going through his catalog of animal sounds at the top of his lungs. "BAAA! MEEOW, MEEOW! MOOOOOOOOO!" Doesn't sound relaxing to me, but hey, whatever works.


So cute!


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 Post subject: Re: Sweet dreams (advice/questions about kid sleep)
PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 2:53 am 
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refinnej wrote:
Do you all do naps in the crib/bed too? I wasn't planning on this, as she sleeps super well during naps usually, but now this pain with getting her to sleep during the day makes me wonder.

My kids were such bad nappers -- even Raygold, who took a small nap every afternoon like clockwork for maybe 16 months -- that I just let them nap wherever they passed out. I pretty much couldn't get them to nap on a schedule or in a crib (okay, sometimes I would put Beetroot in a crib for a nap and turn off the lights and let him cry/fuss/whine himself to sleep if it didn't take long and I was exhausted and needed a kip, too -- this worked maybe 8 times).
But I'd say if your kid naps on anything close to a schedule, to try to get her into the crib so she associates sleeping with the crib.

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 Post subject: Re: Sweet dreams (advice/questions about kid sleep)
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 4:11 pm 
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That is very cute about Walter! I haven't seen her use it to self-soothe to sleep yet, but Freya often goes through much of her (like 10 word) vocabulary when waking, then giggles seemingly with pride at her bad-ass self.

Day 6 here and we're not dead yet, though I very nearly fell asleep on the (10 minute?) bus ride to town yesterday. Fighting naps like mad. I was really really tempted to leave her in that crib today after 1/2 hour of rolling, yawning/eye rubbing and scratching the hell out of me when I thought to gasp! rock her to sleep in my arms. Sigh. Independence is a bisque sometimes. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Sweet dreams (advice/questions about kid sleep)
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 5:19 pm 
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I've been in denial for a long time about this, but the fact is: Sierra is a terrible sleeper. Actually, I should say terrible nighttime sleeper - she does all right for naps during the day. But at night, especially lately, I can't seem to keep her asleep for longer than maybe 2 hours at a time. I mean, fine, she was a newborn but she's 6 months old today and has never slept through the night. Since she was born, I have only slept 6 hours straight twice.

At first, I thought it wasn't so bad because I can nurse her in my sleep but then there's all the things that go along with that - I'm uncomfortable most of the time from having to be in weird positions, I get achey from laying on one side for too long etc. She starts the night out in her crib around 9pm but lately is up and crying before I even want to go to bed (around 11:30). The worst is that I have absolutely 0 luck transferring her to her crib - Howard can do it at naptime but at night he is totally zonked and I just don't see the point in getting out of bed, nursing her somewhere else and then attempt to put her back in her crib BECAUSE IT NEVER WORKS.

This is an especially bad shock because Dahlia is an excellent sleeper and slept at least 8 hours in a row starting at like 6 weeks old! So I'm like "This one is broken!" haha. I know I'm not supposed to compare them etc etc but I can't help it. I'm sorry to say that at this point the reason I'm not enraged every morning is she is so dang cute. But when will it end? I never particularly wanted to share a bed with her but here I am, because otherwise I wouldn't be sleeping at all.


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 Post subject: Re: Sweet dreams (advice/questions about kid sleep)
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 5:21 pm 
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also, I'd like to add that my mom is visiting and is blaming the whole thing on breastfeeding. Oyyyy.


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 Post subject: Re: Sweet dreams (advice/questions about kid sleep)
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 5:38 pm 
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If I could sleep 6 hours in a row, I would eat my own eyelashes. I definitely hear ya on the weird positions thing. My arm is in a permanent up over my shoulder position (so F can get at the boob).

I wonder really, if bf'ing does make a difference. I thought maybe that whole being near mom, smelling milk thing might be going on, but F seems to wake every 50 minutes about 80% of the time (down from like 99% thankfully), regardless of milk, sleeping in the pram/bed/crib, etc.

I tell her sometimes that one day she's going to be all grown up with her own baby and all she's going to want to do is sleep, but I don't think she believes me. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Sweet dreams (advice/questions about kid sleep)
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 5:56 pm 
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Butternut wrote:
JENNA wrote:
Why don't you just wake her up instead of letter her nap so long so late in the day? I wake my kids up all the time if it's going to mess up bedtime. (this mama needs the alone time that bedtime allows including my husband also going to bed so i'm all alone) :)

Whenever I wake mine up she just cries and cries...I always regret it. It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.

I'm sure all babies and toddlers are different, but I tend to follow the nap "rules" my pediatrician gave, and it seems to result in pretty minimal tears for us. Assuming she isn't sick, I always wake my kid up if she naps for more than 3 hours, and I usually wake her up if she sleeps past 4 pm. Exceptions are made for very late but desperately needed naps, in which case I'll wake her up after she's been asleep for an hour to an hour and a half.


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 Post subject: Re: Sweet dreams (advice/questions about kid sleep)
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 2:45 am 
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Audrey wrote:
also, I'd like to add that my mom is visiting and is blaming the whole thing on breastfeeding. Oyyyy.

They all say that!!* I think it's because older generations were told to use formula and give cereal in a bottle to fill up the baby's stomachs so they sleep better (a random mom on the internet gave me a whole spiel about it and how she can get babies to sleep through the night at 3 weeks using this method). And they do sleep way, way better that way, although the SIDS risk is higher.


* Except for my mother-in-law, who told me to breastfeed on a schedule and drop night feeds after 5 weeks and to just ignore the baby all night. "Put it in another room. It'll soon learn that crying won't get your attention and it will sleep."
(Her advice, when I told her my friend's baby was not interested in solids, was to stop feeding it formula (i.e. stop feeding it altogether, but keep offering solids) and it would soon learn.)

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 Post subject: Re: Sweet dreams (advice/questions about kid sleep)
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 5:10 am 
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Oh my god cc. Starve your child.....nice advice.


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