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 Post subject: Re: Effective vegan messaging
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 5:48 pm 
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We lost anything posted late this morning/early afternoon. About 4 hours worth of posts.

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 Post subject: Re: Effective vegan messaging
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 6:07 pm 
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Jigglypuff wrote:
Ugh. Okay, well the point here should be that many people - including myself - are incredibly offended by comparisons of humans to animals.


Like who exactly, apart from creationists?

Did you somehow miss out on biology at school? Humans are animals.


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 Post subject: Re: Effective vegan messaging
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 6:31 pm 
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JimXVX wrote:
Jigglypuff wrote:
Ugh. Okay, well the point here should be that many people - including myself - are incredibly offended by comparisons of humans to animals.


Like who exactly, apart from creationists?

Did you somehow miss out on biology at school? Humans are animals.

Oh, sorry, we don't talk to each other like that there. /kindergarten teacher

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 Post subject: Re: Effective vegan messaging
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 6:39 pm 
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I think some of the essays in Sistah Vegan talk about this in an interesting way.

Comparing marginalized groups (people of color, Jews) to animals can be pretty sensitive considering how marginalized groups been/are compared to animals to justify oppressing them, even though I think the aim there is very different from comparing oppression of animals to oppression of people in order to stand up for animals. It's kind of a difficult line, I think. But I think it's pretty weird to say it is always offensive to compare suffering of animals to suffering of people, since people are animals...like how do we even talk about suffering of animals if we can't bring our own experiences of suffering into it?

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 Post subject: Re: Effective vegan messaging
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 6:47 pm 
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I think that analogies is where things get dubious. Direct comparisons make sense, though. So like, saying "Imagine getting anally electrocuted, that would forking hurt. Well, that's what happens to foxes." But saying "Dairy production is slavery" can be offensive. That's my opinion, anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: Effective vegan messaging
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 6:55 pm 
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IsaChandra wrote:
I think that analogies is where things get dubious. Direct comparisons make sense, though. So like, saying "Imagine getting anally electrocuted, that would forking hurt. Well, that's what happens to foxes." But saying "Dairy production is slavery" can be offensive. That's my opinion, anyway.


Here's one of my questions that got lost in the flood. But what if the person you're trying to convince responds saying, "Well, they're only animals." Isn't that when you need to talk about speciesism, or how we're socialized to value the most trivial human interests over the most fundamental animal ones? And doesn't that easily lead into comparisons with racism, whether you want it to or not?

I'd really love to hear what some vegans of color think.


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 Post subject: Re: Effective vegan messaging
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 6:59 pm 
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I think it also makes sense to discuss how people use similar reasoning to justify oppression of humans and animals.

And if someone who is descended from slaves wants to talk about how factory farming is like slavery, for example, I'm down with it, especially when it has to do with why they personally came to veganism, but as a white person I want to be careful not to appropriate something like slavery to prove my points about animal rights. Though from my vague memory of it I think Earthlings does a good job of discussing oppression of humans and oppression of animals?

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 Post subject: Re: Effective vegan messaging
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 7:00 pm 
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JonnyWoop wrote:
IsaChandra wrote:
I think that analogies is where things get dubious. Direct comparisons make sense, though. So like, saying "Imagine getting anally electrocuted, that would forking hurt. Well, that's what happens to foxes." But saying "Dairy production is slavery" can be offensive. That's my opinion, anyway.


Here's one of my questions that got lost in the flood. But what if the person you're trying to convince responds saying, "Well, they're only animals." Isn't that when you need to talk about speciesism, or how we're socialized to value the most trivial human interests over the most fundamental animal ones? And doesn't that easily lead into comparisons with racism, whether you want it to or not?

I really doubt that someone who doesn't care about animals is going to care about speciesism. My response to "they're only animals" would be to try to activate their empathy for the suffering of others (or, more realistically, to walk away), not to engage them in critical animal theory which a fair number of vegans don't even subscribe to.

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 Post subject: Re: Effective vegan messaging
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 7:01 pm 
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IsaChandra wrote:
I think that analogies is where things get dubious. Direct comparisons make sense, though. So like, saying "Imagine getting anally electrocuted, that would forking hurt. Well, that's what happens to foxes." But saying "Dairy production is slavery" can be offensive. That's my opinion, anyway.

Isa - as wise as she is beautiful.

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 Post subject: Re: Effective vegan messaging
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 7:12 pm 
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I agree that the slavery and Holocaust analogies are ineffective. People who see animals as "just" animals will interpret the analogies as denigrating humans, not as elevating or "humanizing" animals.

But I don't find the analogies inherently offensive or stupid.

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 Post subject: Re: Effective vegan messaging
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 7:12 pm 
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j-dub wrote:
JonnyWoop wrote:
IsaChandra wrote:
I think that analogies is where things get dubious. Direct comparisons make sense, though. So like, saying "Imagine getting anally electrocuted, that would forking hurt. Well, that's what happens to foxes." But saying "Dairy production is slavery" can be offensive. That's my opinion, anyway.


Here's one of my questions that got lost in the flood. But what if the person you're trying to convince responds saying, "Well, they're only animals." Isn't that when you need to talk about speciesism, or how we're socialized to value the most trivial human interests over the most fundamental animal ones? And doesn't that easily lead into comparisons with racism, whether you want it to or not?

I really doubt that someone who doesn't care about animals is going to care about speciesism. My response to "they're only animals" would be to try to activate their empathy for the suffering of others (or, more realistically, to walk away), not to engage them in critical animal theory which a fair number of vegans don't even subscribe to.

Yeah, I think that most people are not going to go from eating meat to engaging you in a discussion of speciesism. Sometimes, it's better to aim for an incremental shift in how someone thinks about animals. You can build on that. If the stop listening to you, what have you accomplished?

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 Post subject: Re: Effective vegan messaging
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 7:20 pm 
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Vantine wrote:
Yeah, I think that most people are not going to go from eating meat to engaging you in a discussion of speciesism. Sometimes, it's better to aim for an incremental shift in how someone thinks about animals. You can build on that. If the stop listening to you, what have you accomplished?


Exactly. If you get too far from that person's position and experience, you'll never get anywhere with them. You have to lead people in the right direction, and in order to do that you have to get close enough to hold their hand.


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 Post subject: Re: Effective vegan messaging
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 7:23 pm 
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JonnyWoop wrote:
IsaChandra wrote:
I think that analogies is where things get dubious. Direct comparisons make sense, though. So like, saying "Imagine getting anally electrocuted, that would forking hurt. Well, that's what happens to foxes." But saying "Dairy production is slavery" can be offensive. That's my opinion, anyway.


Here's one of my questions that got lost in the flood. But what if the person you're trying to convince responds saying, "Well, they're only animals." Isn't that when you need to talk about speciesism, or how we're socialized to value the most trivial human interests over the most fundamental animal ones? And doesn't that easily lead into comparisons with racism, whether you want it to or not?

I'd really love to hear what some vegans of color think.


You'd be mistaken if you assumed that everyone in this thread who hasn't specified their skin color is a white person. Since I can't see through the internet, I don't know what everybody looks like either, but I know for a fact that at least some of the people already posting in this thread are people of color.

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 Post subject: Re: Effective vegan messaging
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 7:29 pm 
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FootFace wrote:
I agree that the slavery and Holocaust analogies are ineffective. People who see animals as "just" animals will interpret the analogies as denigrating humans, not as elevating or "humanizing" animals.

But I don't find the analogies inherently offensive or stupid.


Yeah, this. I got into a facebook fight over cat breeding (and animal breeding in general) and I really wanted to say, "Imagine if the things you're saying about wanting certain qualities in a dog, etc., if someone said them to you about humans." But I was dealing with shrill people on the Hoarders facebook fan page so I didn't. If someone I knew who is capable of having an adult conversation wanted to discuss animal breeding with me, I would make that point.

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 Post subject: Re: Effective vegan messaging
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 7:29 pm 
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JimXVX wrote:
Jigglypuff wrote:
Ugh. Okay, well the point here should be that many people - including myself - are incredibly offended by comparisons of humans to animals.


Like who exactly, apart from creationists?

Did you somehow miss out on biology at school? Humans are animals.

Really? I know many non-religious people who find these comparisons offensive. Most of them are people of color who are angry because they feel that their history is being co-opted for someone else's agenda.

I'm fully aware that humans are animals. I find it smug and pedantic to constantly specify non-human animals. Do people say they fight for animal rights, or do they say they fight for non-human animal rights?

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 Post subject: Re: Effective vegan messaging
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 7:33 pm 
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One of the posts that got lost was me apologizing for being rude. I'm very sorry for my inappropriate comment.

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 Post subject: Re: Effective vegan messaging
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 7:34 pm 
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On the Isaac Bashevis Singer thing -- the "eternal Treblinka" quote is from a short story, where it's part of a character's thoughts while he's in a fever-induced delirium. Singer was a vegetarian, and he said lots of powerful things in support of animal rights, but I've looked, and I couldn't find any time that he compared animal suffering the to Holocaust when he was writing in his own voice.


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 Post subject: Re: Effective vegan messaging
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 7:36 pm 
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mrsbadmouth wrote:
FootFace wrote:
I agree that the slavery and Holocaust analogies are ineffective. People who see animals as "just" animals will interpret the analogies as denigrating humans, not as elevating or "humanizing" animals.

But I don't find the analogies inherently offensive or stupid.


Yeah, this. I got into a facebook fight over cat breeding (and animal breeding in general) and I really wanted to say, "Imagine if the things you're saying about wanting certain qualities in a dog, etc., if someone said them to you about humans." But I was dealing with shrill people on the Hoarders facebook fan page so I didn't. If someone I knew who is capable of having an adult conversation wanted to discuss animal breeding with me, I would make that point.


But you are making a more subtle comment that I don't think is offensive. I think this is what Isa meant by a direct comparison. Did you hear what was said when PETA tried to make the same point by having people in Klan robes march outside the Westminster Dog Show? That was less effective.

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 Post subject: Re: Effective vegan messaging
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 7:37 pm 
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choirqueer wrote:
JonnyWoop wrote:
IsaChandra wrote:
I think that analogies is where things get dubious. Direct comparisons make sense, though. So like, saying "Imagine getting anally electrocuted, that would forking hurt. Well, that's what happens to foxes." But saying "Dairy production is slavery" can be offensive. That's my opinion, anyway.


Here's one of my questions that got lost in the flood. But what if the person you're trying to convince responds saying, "Well, they're only animals." Isn't that when you need to talk about speciesism, or how we're socialized to value the most trivial human interests over the most fundamental animal ones? And doesn't that easily lead into comparisons with racism, whether you want it to or not?

I'd really love to hear what some vegans of color think.


You'd be mistaken if you assumed that everyone in this thread who hasn't specified their skin color is a white person. Since I can't see through the internet, I don't know what everybody looks like either, but I know for a fact that at least some of the people already posting in this thread are people of color.


Unfortunately they didn't submit their POC-001 opinion form signed and in triplicate. Nor did they submit the form that authorizes them to submit opinions on behalf all vegans of color. Therefore their opinions on the matter are invalid.

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 Post subject: Re: Effective vegan messaging
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 7:42 pm 
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I agree with Isa. Analogies become an issue in my opinion because they alienate potential allies.the holocaust and slavery elicit specific emotional responses in people. If speciesism is not congruent with these responses we risk offending individuals who might otherwise support our cause. Choosing more neutral images or asking people to empathize with the specific experiences of farmed animals would be more effective in my opinion.

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 Post subject: Re: Effective vegan messaging
PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 7:42 pm 
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Larisa wrote:
On the Isaac Bashevis Singer thing -- the "eternal Treblinka" quote is from a short story, where it's part of a character's thoughts while he's in a fever-induced delirium. Singer was a vegetarian, and he said lots of powerful things in support of animal rights, but I've looked, and I couldn't find any time that he compared animal suffering the to Holocaust when he was writing in his own voice.


Thanks. I'll look too. I thought it was from a speech he gave, where he spoke of looking out his window down into stock yards.

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 Post subject: Re: Effective vegan messaging
PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 3:45 am 
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I find it offensive because it minimizes people's lived experiences of racism, hate, and oppression.


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 Post subject: Re: Effective vegan messaging
PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:35 am 
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linanil wrote:
choirqueer wrote:
JonnyWoop wrote:
Here's one of my questions that got lost in the flood. But what if the person you're trying to convince responds saying, "Well, they're only animals." Isn't that when you need to talk about speciesism, or how we're socialized to value the most trivial human interests over the most fundamental animal ones? And doesn't that easily lead into comparisons with racism, whether you want it to or not?

I'd really love to hear what some vegans of color think.


You'd be mistaken if you assumed that everyone in this thread who hasn't specified their skin color is a white person. Since I can't see through the internet, I don't know what everybody looks like either, but I know for a fact that at least some of the people already posting in this thread are people of color.


Unfortunately they didn't submit their POC-001 opinion form signed and in triplicate. Nor did they submit the form that authorizes them to submit opinions on behalf all vegans of color. Therefore their opinions on the matter are invalid.


I'm sorry if I offended you or anyone else. It wasn't intentional.


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 Post subject: Re: Effective vegan messaging
PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 7:49 am 
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I can't speak for linanil or anyone else, but my point was not that I was offended. On the contrary, you sound like someone who is genuinely interested in unpacking and countering racism, so my intention was to support you in the work that you're doing by calling your attention to an assumption you may not have realizing you were making. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Effective vegan messaging
PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 8:22 am 
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Asking for input from vegans of color rubs me the wrong way because everyone has different opinions and experiences. A descendant of former slaves in the US may have different thoughts than a Jewish person and they may both have different thoughts than a Native American. And perhaps a 'person of color' living in a foreign non-white country would have yet another opinion. I think overall you've received fair responses from people with various backgrounds without trying to solicit for vegan of color spokespeople.

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