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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:22 am 
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Okay, I just read feministe's take on the piece (and thus most of the actual piece) and I want to forking vomit.

Though I do think this speaks to an important point about sexualized violence: the (overwhelmingly) men perpetrating honestly don't think they're doing anything wrong. They're getting what they want, to hell with the consequences for other people.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 12:27 am 
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Thanks for the link. I read the piece and am going to think about it a bit more.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 11:34 am 
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I've read some stuff on the Good Men Project that I thought was pretty good, but lately, there's been a whole lot of skin-crawling stuff, and a lot less of the articles that I'd appreciated a while ago.


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:47 pm 
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I read the article and I'm glad that I read it. I agree that it's a really problematic piece. I felt like that was addressed well in the disclaimer that preceded the article, where GMP makes it clear that they do not endorse or agree with the writer's conclusions. I think that if we are serious about wanting to prevent rape, we have to hear the perspectives of people who commit rape. Yeah, it's forked up and uncomfortable, and I would never suggest that everybody needs to expose themselves to triggering content, but I definitely see the value in publishing a piece like this. (Hiding text below for potentially triggering content about my personal experience)
Spoiler: show
And as someone who has been raped, I'm at the point where it's helpful and constructive for me to view rapists as human beings who made a terrible mistake, and reading stories like this one are helpful and constructive for me in that way. A lot of times I feel like there is so much pressure for me to declare that the people who raped me are terrible horrible monsters who should be locked away forever, or else I couldn't possibly have actually been raped, and that made it really really hard for me to deal with what happened to me.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 12:52 am 
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Yeah, I'm not really upset that they published it. I'm angry at the author and I just don't like the GMP for various reasons. I was fuming because the author outright says that he would rather risk attacking people than stop partying, and because he compared the harmful choices he makes to driving (which is a necessary part of life for many people) after getting in a car accident (which is called an accident for a damn good reason).

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:48 pm 
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I suppose you have all read this:
http://jezebel.com/5929544/rapists-expl ... uld-listen


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:59 pm 
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I hate all the people saying that Ann Hathaway exposed herself to paparazzi on purpose in order to get publicity for her new movie. Really? She doesn't even do nudity and I can't think of anything more horrifying than to realize that you stepped out of a car in an unfortunate way and exposed your vulva to the international media.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 5:17 pm 
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I think people were even more angry about that GMP article because it was posted on the heels of another rape-related article, where the author talks about her friend the rapist who just honestly didn't know that "having sex with" a woman who was asleep w/o her prior consent was rape, gosh! And in the anonymous rapist article, while the intro says they disagree with him, they don't bother to clarify why they disagree with him, and are, like, so thankful that he was brave enough to anonymously admit that he is a rapist and will make no attempt to change his behavior. I mean, somebody give that guy a damn cookie already.

For more Good Men Project superfuntimes history, check out this other Feministe article.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 5:18 pm 
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Tofulish wrote:
I hate all the people saying that Ann Hathaway exposed herself to paparazzi on purpose in order to get publicity for her new movie. Really? She doesn't even do nudity and I can't think of anything more horrifying than to realize that you stepped out of a car in an unfortunate way and exposed your vulva to the international media.

Yes to all of this. I do love how she responded Matt Lauer though.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 5:22 pm 
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What did she say?

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 5:45 pm 
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Tofulish wrote:
What did she say?

"It kind of made me sad on two accounts. One was that I was very sad that we live in an age when someone takes a picture of another person in a vulnerable moment and rather than delete it--and do the decent thing--sells it. And I’m sorry that we live in a culture that commodifies sexuality of unwilling participants, which brings us back to 'Les Mis,' that's what my character is, she is someone who is forced to sell sex to benefit her child because she has nothing and there's no social safety net."

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 6:04 pm 
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rhelune wrote:


Man, reading that was hard. But +1 to everything there.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 6:07 pm 
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just saw this and the different takes on it

Listening While Feminist in Defense of Baby its Cold Outside
http://persephonemagazine.com/2010/12/0 ... d-outside/

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 6:39 pm 
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SkepticalVegan wrote:
just saw this and the different takes on it

Listening While Feminist in Defense of Baby its Cold Outside
http://persephonemagazine.com/2010/12/0 ... d-outside/



That was probably the most dismissive way possible to defend the song. "She doesn't explicitly say no, so its consensual!"

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 7:21 pm 
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rhelune wrote:


Like Fee said, difficult to read, but I'm glad I did. I don't think those guys deserve cookies, but I really really think this needs to be the forefront of rape prevention. How many people are rapists? What are they thinking? How can we challenge that thinking? The front page news today was about a string of public sexual assaults and how they caught the dude, but how women should always always always be afraid to be alone in public. Really? Can't we talk about how that attitude makes it dangerous for women to be out in public?

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:17 pm 
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I cannot believe that women I know on FB are calling Ann Hathaway a slut and hors d'oeuvre for having a wardrobe malfunction. The victim blaming is out of control - why was she going out without underwear, what did you expect the paparazzi to do, I know several actresses who have been told to do that blahblahblah. I am seeing red and am so angry.

Even the quote, where she says it was horrible, she felt vulnerable and wasn't a willing participant is being treated as proof that it was a publicity stunt bc she mentions Les Miz. Someone said that proved that she was admitting that it was a publicity stunt.

I don't expect women to be the ones viciously ripping apart another woman, but hey, ingrained tool of the patriarchy much?

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:07 am 
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It's weird because while I obviously don't blame her for being a victim of paparazzi pornographers, I don't like that holding that position prevents me from saying that I think people shouldn't go out in public with their crotches hanging out. It bothers me that that standard of public decency doesn't apply to celebrities. It would be totally unacceptable for me to have my vulva visible getting out of a car, so I'm not really in the mood to defend her right to not know how to get dressed in a way that was appropriate for leaving the house.

I don't know what the hell a "wardrobe malfunction" is. Somehow I managed to live on this planet even longer than Annie Hathaway and never had a wardrobe malfunction (even when breastfeeding, when it should be totally acceptable to have otherwise private parts half hanging out). Wear underwear or learn how to get out of a car with your legs together, people. Flashing is flashing.

You can support her right to not be objectified just by appearing in public and give no sanction to surprise pornography while simultaneously not condoning her flashing people on the street. The former shouldn't have to crowd out the latter, although it's unfortunate that the only way we know how to say the latter is apparently to call her a slut.


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:21 am 
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Ariann wrote:
I don't know what the hell a "wardrobe malfunction" is. Somehow I managed to live on this planet even longer than Annie Hathaway and never had a wardrobe malfunction (even when breastfeeding, when it should be totally acceptable to have otherwise private parts half hanging out). Wear underwear or learn how to get out of a car with your legs together, people. Flashing is flashing.


Stuff happens. I've had a boob pop out of a swimsuit in public before. Sometimes you think your stuff is all in, and then it just isn't. I'm just glad people don't follow me around with cameras waiting for me to screw up. That upskirt shot might not have been the kind of thing someone without a flash and zoom lens would have even seen.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:29 am 
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Somehow having a boob pop out of a swimsuit (likely in a place where it was appropriate to wear a swimsuit) seems like less of a big deal than having your crotch visible at a fancy-dress affair (or having your crotch visible in lots of other contexts - like I once saw a guy in the library with his junk hanging out of his shorts - wardrobe malfunction because he left the house in short shorts and no underwear or purposeful flashing? either way, super uncool). Context makes a difference. It seems like you'd pay a lot more attention to having your bits strategically covered when you know you're going to have a million photographers around you.


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:58 am 
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Alright, I'm not managing to adequately express what's annoying to me about this. Let me try again.

The only reason it matters what any celebrity wears to such an event is because they know the place will be crawling with photographers. They're looking for publicity and they're looking to create a particular image. They dress very carefully for the occasion, even hiring people to find them the right thing to wear and sometimes borrowing clothes and jewelery for the occasion. (In this particular case, she even got the shoe designer to make her a vegan version of the shoes she wanted to wear!) So knowing all that, and knowing that what she wears and how she carries herself is precisely designed to create the image she wants of herself - because this appearance *is her job,* it's not just showing up walking down the street - knowing all of that, why would a person not fully dress in a way that protects their image the way they want? And when that image is broken as in this case, why would the only appropriate response be anger at the pornographers (who are also doing their job and the celebrities RELY on them to do that job most of the time) and not frustration around the way women are expected to dress to these things (because she's dressed as forking dominatrix in an oversized trash bag, come on now) and total confusion that someone who doesn't want their crotch broadcast to the world wouldn't wear appropriate undergarments.


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:58 am 
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Uh, I kinda hate myself for going to look at it, but no genitalia is shown. She has her thighs together, you just see a tad bit of pubic hair. I can definitely see how she thought she was safe getting out that way.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 1:02 am 
***LIES!!!***
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hahahaha. Well in that case, I don't know why this is a big deal at all. Although, still, wear underwear!


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 1:13 am 
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I think photogs and celebs have a mutually beneficial relationship, and it is okay for celebs to draw the line at their junk. Why should she HAVE to wear underwear if she is otherwise reasonably covered and the only way you could see something you shouldn't is if you are pointing a zoom lens right at her nethers at the exact moment she could, if she didn't move her legs just right, expose herself for a matter of seconds?

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:25 am 
Should Write a Goddam Book Already
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I think I said this last year, but Baby it's Cold Outside is pretty much my least favorite. The sexual politics in the 30s sucked defense does not work for me.


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:51 am 
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I'm sure Angela Merkel let paparazzi take photos of her bare behind, too, to help promote her politics :>

Speaking of Merkel, journalists criticized her for wearing the same dress at two formal events. They didn't criticize her husband(?), who wore the same outfit, too.

(I'm not a fan of Merkel or her politics.)


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