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 Post subject: Re: massive school shooting in CT :-(
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 6:52 am 
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I've started getting the "god would've stopped this if he was welcome in schools" posts on my FB feed...I have the feeling I'm going to have to start unfriending to avoid spending the weekend ranting at these forkers.

Shy Mox wrote:
kfad wrote:
I don't think anyone is equating all persons with mental illness to violence (well, my mother was trying too...).


It would be ideal if we, as a culture, as a country, could realize that mental health does not exist in a vacuum. Guns do not exist in a vacuum. All of these things are interconnected. And we need to start treating them as such.


Very true, its not one single issue that can account for all the mass shootings. The Aurora shooter got very good mental health care from a psychiatrist who was a pioneer on preventing that very thing. A lot of people the world over have mental health issues, and when there is tragedy its often manifested in cultural ways. Its not a simple easy thing to explain away, and we might end up having to make some radical changes.


I was not aware of that so thank you for pointing that out.

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 Post subject: Re: massive school shooting in CT :-(
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 7:12 am 
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Guns are not the problem. This was an act of evil. Guns don't kill people, they just make it easier. There always has been and always will be evil people in this world. Taking away the guns won’t make people stop hurting each other; it will just make them find a different method.

I don’t like people blaming guns, bullying, depression, etc. Blame the piece of shiitake who killed his parents and then executed 20 small innocent children. Some people want nothing more than to inflict pain and suffering on the world.

We search for a cause because we want to believe that someone could have prevented this. The only way to prevent these horrific tragedies is to be vigilant. There is no way this guy didn’t give off warning signs, the problem is that most people will either think that its none of their business and they shouldn’t get involved, or they will think "oh, I know him, he'd never actually do it".

This is an excerpt from an article I read earlier written by an expert on active shooter situations.

Quote:
Updated tactics have saved lives. Police officers have gotten better at responding to these incidents. Officers arrive and engage these shooters as soon as possible.

The problem is, the public does not understand it can play an important role in preventing these shootings. Administrators at businesses, schools, post offices, hospitals think if they post their facility as a “No Gun Zone” they have done their part. Problem solved.

All they have successfully done in the case of the active shooter is to facilitate a higher body count by designating the facility as a soft target.

Instead, citizens need to realize evil always has and always will dwell amongst us. They must understand that before there is a manifestation of evil deeds, shooters will act, talk, write, post, warn, threaten, promise and sometimes even predict in a threatening manner.

These evil people that are the active shooters can be stopped long before someone dies by understanding that most shooters pass through a fantasy stage, planning stage, preparation stage, approach stage and implementation stage. When passing through these phases these shooters say troubling things, exhibit trouble behaviors, while they gather troubling equipment. Someone has always been there to see, but few pay attention and fewer still call the police.

Schools teachers, doctors, lawyers, therapists, judges, shopkeepers, neighbors, and yes, gun dealers need to pay attention. Many of these incidents can be prevented by the simple act of calling the police when something just doesn’t look, sound, or feel right.

Citizens that are paying attention can make the difference with one well timed and well placed phone call to prevent the active shooting incident.


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 Post subject: Re: massive school shooting in CT :-(
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 7:20 am 
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the calls to ban "assault weapons" is always interesting, they aren't even designed to kill, handguns are.


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 Post subject: Re: massive school shooting in CT :-(
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:39 am 
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SpiceMiner wrote:
Taking away the guns won’t make people stop hurting each other; it will just make them find a different method.


No one expects violence to just disappear, but, as mentioned earlier, if he'd attacked everybody with a knife the fatality rate would very likely be much lower.

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 Post subject: Re: massive school shooting in CT :-(
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:14 am 
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ismloveyoubobbybrown wrote:
SpiceMiner wrote:
Taking away the guns won’t make people stop hurting each other; it will just make them find a different method.


No one expects violence to just disappear, but, as mentioned earlier, if he'd attacked everybody with a knife the fatality rate would very likely be much lower.


Not necessarily, it may have just taken longer...


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 Post subject: Re: massive school shooting in CT :-(
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:17 am 
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No, not at all, actually. In the time it would take to kill one person the rest could evacuate.


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 Post subject: Re: massive school shooting in CT :-(
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:24 am 
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GuiltyofBeingSprite wrote:
the calls to ban "assault weapons" is always interesting, they aren't even designed to kill, handguns are.


What are assault weapons intended to do if not kill?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_As ... eapons_Ban

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 Post subject: Re: massive school shooting in CT :-(
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:32 am 
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Tofulish wrote:
GuiltyofBeingSprite wrote:
the calls to ban "assault weapons" is always interesting, they aren't even designed to kill, handguns are.


What are assault weapons intended to do if not kill?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_As ... eapons_Ban



They are intended to wound, because it was determined it was costlier to wound combatants than to kill them. The type of ammunition is very different.


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 Post subject: Re: massive school shooting in CT :-(
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:35 am 
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Well then they weren't designed very well


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 Post subject: Re: massive school shooting in CT :-(
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:36 am 
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but besides all of that, handguns are much easier to use by novices, easily available, and generally much more concealable. Much more of a threat than military style weapons in random acts of violence


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 Post subject: Re: massive school shooting in CT :-(
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:36 am 
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Yeah they should probs do a recall

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 Post subject: Re: massive school shooting in CT :-(
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:23 am 
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SpiceMiner wrote:
ismloveyoubobbybrown wrote:
SpiceMiner wrote:
Taking away the guns won’t make people stop hurting each other; it will just make them find a different method.


No one expects violence to just disappear, but, as mentioned earlier, if he'd attacked everybody with a knife the fatality rate would very likely be much lower.


Not necessarily, it may have just taken longer...


...you do realize that in central China, on the very same day of the CT tragedy, a person assaulted a group of schoolkids with a knife and no one was killed? This isn't really the best argument to make your point right now.

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 Post subject: Re: massive school shooting in CT :-(
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 11:17 am 
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GuiltyofBeingSprite wrote:
Tofulish wrote:
GuiltyofBeingSprite wrote:
the calls to ban "assault weapons" is always interesting, they aren't even designed to kill, handguns are.


What are assault weapons intended to do if not kill?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_As ... eapons_Ban



They are intended to wound, because it was determined it was costlier to wound combatants than to kill them. The type of ammunition is very different.


well, yes and no. Some assault rifles like the m16 etc were designed with a few things in mind, one that american military personnel were on the whole generally good people, and had a lot of trouble getting over that "hump" to being interested in killing people; studies showed that people that had to aim and think about thier shot had a higher likelihood of missing, so the assumption was if fully automatic capacity was given to every soldier there was a higher likelihood that a "spray and pray" (not my phrase) was more effective in large scale combat. Smaller rounds (like the m16) are more likely to tumble and bounce around if they penetrate, causing more damage whereas larger calibers (ak47 and many other weapons made by other countries) result in more wounds that have linear entrance and exit point.

Assault rifles, in my opinion, are popular because there are way too many civilians who think they are some undiscovered special forces talent.

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 Post subject: Re: massive school shooting in CT :-(
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 11:44 am 
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alden wrote:
GuiltyofBeingSprite wrote:


They are intended to wound, because it was determined it was costlier to wound combatants than to kill them. The type of ammunition is very different.


well, yes and no. Some assault rifles like the m16 etc were designed with a few things in mind, one that american military personnel were on the whole generally good people, and had a lot of trouble getting over that "hump" to being interested in killing people; studies showed that people that had to aim and think about thier shot had a higher likelihood of missing, so the assumption was if fully automatic capacity was given to every soldier there was a higher likelihood that a "spray and pray" (not my phrase) was more effective in large scale combat. Smaller rounds (like the m16) are more likely to tumble and bounce around if they penetrate, causing more damage whereas larger calibers (ak47 and many other weapons made by other countries) result in more wounds that have linear entrance and exit point.

Assault rifles, in my opinion, are popular because there are way too many civilians who think they are some undiscovered special forces talent.


just want to get this out early (it's too late for me to edit) I apologize if my comment in any way sounded argumentative, I am just trying to add my personal insight about the weapons from my brief time in the military.

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 Post subject: Re: massive school shooting in CT :-(
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 11:59 am 
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The "guns don't kill people" argument always sounds to me like "stop hurting the guns' feelings."

Of course guns don't up and kill people. But they make it awfully easy for angry/unstable/suicidal/deranged people to do awful things. Without guns, we'd still have angry and suicidal people, it's true. But what are they going to do? Rampage through a school with a sledgehammer? Shove a line of commuters in front of subway cars? Methodically walk through their workplace stabbing everyone?

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 Post subject: Re: massive school shooting in CT :-(
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:24 pm 
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I think what gun apologists are trying to say is that we need to ban people, no guns. That way no people will kill, and, more importantly, no people will get killed.


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 Post subject: Re: massive school shooting in CT :-(
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:01 pm 
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Oh, okay. Well, I fully support the ban on people.

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 Post subject: Re: massive school shooting in CT :-(
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:29 pm 
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The media is doing such a bad job covering this. They are running around speculating and pushing any "fact" they hear 4th ha d just to fill air time. This seems equally bad on all networks.

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 Post subject: Re: massive school shooting in CT :-(
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 4:31 pm 
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lavawitch wrote:
The media is doing such a bad job covering this. They are running around speculating and pushing any "fact" they hear 4th ha d just to fill air time. This seems equally bad on all networks.

It's awful. They've gotten almost every detail wrong at this point.

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 Post subject: Re: massive school shooting in CT :-(
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 5:19 pm 
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lavawitch wrote:
I also feel so much for the police. I think we always expect that they just handle these things are are so brave and awesome, but they are just good people who can, and do, break.

So well put and so true.

I woke up this morning and was amazed at how much more normal I felt than I did yesterday. Then I thought of the families of the victims and how for them the nightmare has just begun and feeling normal again is such a long way off, if ever. My heart can not stop breaking for them.

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 Post subject: Re: massive school shooting in CT :-(
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 5:49 pm 
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My cousin posted a picture and a story of a 1st grade teacher. When she heard the shots, she hid all her kids in the closets of the classroom. The shooter came in, she said the kids were in the gym, he killed her and left the room. I can't even imagine.

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 Post subject: Re: massive school shooting in CT :-(
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 6:15 pm 
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linanil wrote:
My cousin posted a picture and a story of a 1st grade teacher. When she heard the shots, she hid all her kids in the closets of the classroom. The shooter came in, she said the kids were in the gym, he killed her and left the room. I can't even imagine.

She graduated from my university a few years ago. The president of the university just sent out an email about her.
My mind is still so blown by all of this.

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 Post subject: Re: massive school shooting in CT :-(
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 6:23 pm 
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linanil wrote:
My cousin posted a picture and a story of a 1st grade teacher. When she heard the shots, she hid all her kids in the closets of the classroom. The shooter came in, she said the kids were in the gym, he killed her and left the room. I can't even imagine.

She possibly saved the lives of each and every one of those children. She did a most brave, courageous, and heroic thing. I am so sorry she was lost as a result.

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 Post subject: Re: massive school shooting in CT :-(
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 6:43 pm 
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wow. what an amazing woman.

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 Post subject: Re: massive school shooting in CT :-(
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 7:43 pm 
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Victoria Soto showed incredible presence of mind and courage. It sounds like all the teachers were heroes, going out of their way to protect the students. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... upils.html

I've always thought that teaching was one of the noblest professions, and never more so than today.

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