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 Post subject: Re: massive school shooting in CT :-(
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 7:47 pm 
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I can't even imagine.

I've also heard that the principal ran into the hall to directly confront the shooter.

It's highly possible that if Victoria Soto had not been there when he came in, he may ave started looking or just spraying shots around the room.

I'm glad it seems a little more attention is being given to the adults who were murdered as well. Small children being gunned down is so horrifying (I know I have a more emotional gut instinct reaction to it), but, it's equally as tragic that the 6 adult women were also killed. The principal has 5 children.

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 Post subject: Re: massive school shooting in CT :-(
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:36 pm 
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The exact facts about Victoria Soto may not be correct. Snopes is saying that different networks have given different details and the same story has also been ascribed to one of the other murdered teachers. Not that it matters, she was a hero regardless, just that there have been multiple inconsistencies in reporting. I think the only people whose actions can be positively ascertained are the principal and school psychologist, as there were surviving adult eye witnesses. The rest i think is not going to be clear for a few days at least.


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 Post subject: Re: massive school shooting in CT :-(
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:56 pm 
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This is what I mean about the media here. Have we ever seen such awful, awful reporting before?

They are even running with the idea that the brother said he was on the autism spectrum, as if that has anything to do with anything, plus it's not even remotely confirmed.

I don't feel that we have many facts at all.

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 Post subject: Re: massive school shooting in CT :-(
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:22 pm 
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It's amazing how many "facts" I heard on Friday that were not true (I was obsessively checking news websites and barely getting any work done).
-second person arrested on school grounds - anything ever come of this? Did this even happen? It seemed unlikely at the time.
-shooter's father/possibly brother as well dead in NJ - not true
-shooter went to the school to kill his mother who was a teacher there - not true
and of course the absolute worst, ID'ing the shooter's brother as the shooter


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 Post subject: Re: massive school shooting in CT :-(
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 11:53 pm 
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lavawitch wrote:
This is what I mean about the media here. Have we ever seen such awful, awful reporting before?

They are even running with the idea that the brother said he was on the autism spectrum, as if that has anything to do with anything, plus it's not even remotely confirmed.

I don't feel that we have many facts at all.


I nearly slammed my head in the wall because my sister was saying people at the bar she was working at were saying that because of this, autistic people should be registered into some kind of database because that'll do...something.

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 Post subject: Re: massive school shooting in CT :-(
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 12:02 am 
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I do think its interesting that so many people are calling for increased funding of mental health programs because of this, when here (like with Jared Loughner), the perpetator was under the care of mental health professionals. Facts. They don't always say what you want them to.

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 Post subject: Re: massive school shooting in CT :-(
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 12:27 am 
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Talking to people at my office about this on Friday made me absolutely crazy. My boss's reaction was to go out and buy a new automatic weapon! What the fork!!

How do you witness something like this and not support an assault weapons ban? Just how is it even possible?


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 Post subject: Re: massive school shooting in CT :-(
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 1:06 am 
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ashley wrote:
My boss's reaction was to go out and buy a new automatic weapon! What the fork!!


!!!!!

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 Post subject: Re: massive school shooting in CT :-(
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 1:21 am 
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 Post subject: Re: massive school shooting in CT :-(
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 1:27 am 
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Tofulish wrote:
I do think its interesting that so many people are calling for increased funding of mental health programs because of this, when here (like with Jared Loughner), the perpetator was under the care of mental health professionals. Facts. They don't always say what you want them to.


But we do need increased funding, access, and awareness, just like we need to address gun control issues. We also need better understanding so that people don't automatically link mental illness to awful things. You know 99% of people automatically assume the shooter is "crazy" with little to no understanding of what that means. That's why I feel that even problematic discussion is a lot better than the radio silence we usually get.

The guns in this case were all properly obtained, just apparently improperly secured, but that doesn't negate the overall need to make it harder to get them even if this case isn't a poster example.

The problem is nobody wants to talk about these things at any time other than after a tragedy and therefore, political will is also nil. I hate seeing these dialogues happen like this and detractong from what happened, but I don't see them happening otherwise.

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 Post subject: Re: massive school shooting in CT :-(
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 1:41 am 
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ashley wrote:
Talking to people at my office about this on Friday made me absolutely crazy. My boss's reaction was to go out and buy a new automatic weapon! What the fork!!

How do you witness something like this and not support an assault weapons ban? Just how is it even possible?


This only makes sense if you can imagine the mindset of people who genuinely feel that they need a gun for protection. They can visualize themselves reacting perfectly in any situation.

I saw this at VT. I had classmates who were from the big hunting part of the state and were big into guns, and to a one, they all thought concealed carry on campus a great idea, even though some of them also heartulle those gun shots in an inhumanly short amount of time.

On the other hand, the ROTC people who were trained on some guns had a healthy respect for the skills needed and were adamant against, even though many of them went to the range for fun on the weekends as a hobby.

It's just a peculiar mindset that doesn't translate.

We have a family friend who also thinks this way, but he is as liberal as you can get on any issues except gun control. He is from Georgia and Oklahoma and damn it, he wants his guns. He carries anywhere its legal. Freaks me out, actually. I already refused to talk to him today; heard my dad getting into it with him though.

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 Post subject: Re: massive school shooting in CT :-(
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 1:43 am 
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Oh, also: this makes me laugh in a sad sort of way: people think teachers should have guns, but we can't collect kids' cell phones etc and store them in a locked drawer because of liability issues and possibility of theft. Yet somehow, we could keep a loaded gun there?

I do want to add that I understand that the issue of how mental health and mental illness should be discussed is a hot button issue and it's a hard topic to approach respectfully. My views all pretty much stem directly from my witnessing the drastic positive changes that occured state wide at the college level here in my state. I personally tried to access help prior, at the same clinic and was turned away, something that was very, very typical. So much so that it was a running joke among stressed out grad students. Now, it is much different. None of this would have occurred had immense political and public pressure not been brought to bear. if I have offended anybody here, please take into account my specific, traumatic lens.

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 Post subject: Re: massive school shooting in CT :-(
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 2:51 am 
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You've got to be forking kidding me. The forking forkers from the forking Westboro Baptist Church are planning on picketing at Sandy Hook tonight. These people are monsters.

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 Post subject: Re: massive school shooting in CT :-(
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 4:52 am 
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I came home from work on Friday (I'm a teacher in a small, close-knit school) and was just reflecting on how awesome my students are. How lucky I am to work with such great kids and with colleagues that believe in what we do. And then I checked the news. As others have said, children are amazingly resilient and will learn to get through this, but their trust has been broken. I feel especially for those kids for whom school is the only safe place in their life. Now what do they have?


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 Post subject: Re: massive school shooting in CT :-(
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 7:21 am 
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ZoeTate wrote:
It's amazing how many "facts" I heard on Friday that were not true (I was obsessively checking news websites and barely getting any work done).
-second person arrested on school grounds - anything ever come of this? Did this even happen? It seemed unlikely at the time.
-shooter's father/possibly brother as well dead in NJ - not true
-shooter went to the school to kill his mother who was a teacher there - not true
and of course the absolute worst, ID'ing the shooter's brother as the shooter


So I haven't been obsessive about it but was reading an article last night about the adults that were killed. They said that the mother was a teacher at the school? It seems the news was flip flopping. Do we know the connection between him, the mother and the school?

Also, I saw something that indicated the police had detained/arrested his brother for a short period of time but then he was released. I'm guessing this was the second person but he wasn't on school grounds.

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 Post subject: Re: massive school shooting in CT :-(
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 10:48 am 
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linanil wrote:
ZoeTate wrote:
It's amazing how many "facts" I heard on Friday that were not true (I was obsessively checking news websites and barely getting any work done).
-second person arrested on school grounds - anything ever come of this? Did this even happen? It seemed unlikely at the time.
-shooter's father/possibly brother as well dead in NJ - not true
-shooter went to the school to kill his mother who was a teacher there - not true
and of course the absolute worst, ID'ing the shooter's brother as the shooter


So I haven't been obsessive about it but was reading an article last night about the adults that were killed. They said that the mother was a teacher at the school? It seems the news was flip flopping. Do we know the connection between him, the mother and the school?

Also, I saw something that indicated the police had detained/arrested his brother for a short period of time but then he was released. I'm guessing this was the second person but he wasn't on school grounds.


I wouldn't speculate! The brother is not thought to be involved at all and has already had the horrifying experience of being named the killer for a number of hours on Friday.


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 Post subject: Re: massive school shooting in CT :-(
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 10:50 am 
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celyn wrote:
linanil wrote:
ZoeTate wrote:
It's amazing how many "facts" I heard on Friday that were not true (I was obsessively checking news websites and barely getting any work done).
-second person arrested on school grounds - anything ever come of this? Did this even happen? It seemed unlikely at the time.
-shooter's father/possibly brother as well dead in NJ - not true
-shooter went to the school to kill his mother who was a teacher there - not true
and of course the absolute worst, ID'ing the shooter's brother as the shooter


So I haven't been obsessive about it but was reading an article last night about the adults that were killed. They said that the mother was a teacher at the school? It seems the news was flip flopping. Do we know the connection between him, the mother and the school?

Also, I saw something that indicated the police had detained/arrested his brother for a short period of time but then he was released. I'm guessing this was the second person but he wasn't on school grounds.


I wouldn't speculate! The brother is not thought to be involved at all and has already had the horrifying experience of being named the killer for a number of hours on Friday.


I'm not speculating. I don't think the brother was involved, I have no clue why they would arrest the brother but that is what the news article said. And I meant I was guessing that the other news articles saying that a second person being arrested might've referred to the brother being arrested.

And maybe what I meant wasn't clear. 1) News articles (not any I read) saying that a second person was arrested, 2) News articles I read indicated brother was arrested for short period, 3) I'm guessing #1 is referring to #2 but who knows?

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 Post subject: Re: massive school shooting in CT :-(
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 11:00 am 
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 Post subject: Re: massive school shooting in CT :-(
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 11:11 am 
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Exactly. I'm sure the brother was also talked to but I highly doubt he was even arrested for a short period of time. Police showing up at someone's house doesn't equal arrest. The news is just crazy.

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 Post subject: Re: massive school shooting in CT :-(
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 11:35 am 
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They definitely referred to the brother being "in custody" a few times (once they'd clarified he wasn't the shooter) but I assume that wasn't true either. He was talking to the police but of course he would, he would have important info.

I haven't seen clarification on the mom's job, I've seen SAHM, substitute teacher, teacher's aide and teacher. I guess it's a small point really, but they just seemed to run with whatever rumor they'd heard last (about anything) instead of just saying they don't know.


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 Post subject: Re: massive school shooting in CT :-(
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 1:49 pm 
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lavawitch wrote:
The problem is nobody wants to talk about these things at any time other than after a tragedy and therefore, political will is also nil. I hate seeing these dialogues happen like this and detractong from what happened, but I don't see them happening otherwise.


I disagree that having a dialogue about reason and prevention detracts from what happened (not responding to you, personally, LW--just the concise point). The dialogue is about what happened because we can't ignore it; I would hope, on a legislative level, that there is a discussion currently going, that someone's drafting a bill...because this is a more relevant and urgent time to do so than in months when no such shooting is occurring.

The dialogue is definitely a derailment (and a disrespectful one, at that) when it turns into things like, "who brings a six year-old to the Dark Knight?" A dialogue that is meant to shut down is also the wrong dialogue. But continually reiterating that guns do, in fact, kill and that countries with stricter gun laws have a much lower death rate--that's necessary especially in the wake of the tragedy because frankly, those who are apolitical forget tragedy very quickly, and when that happens, the reason for gun laws has no context in their minds.

I agree that it's problematic to excuse mental health from the conversation, and it's also problematic to include. Largely, this is because of a general conflation of mental illness with badness or something that is unpreventable and thus, no one else's problem. The knee-jerk, "he must have been mentally ill," is more comforting than, "he had full understanding of his actions", but both could be true. Working on laws regarding access to mental health services, getting everyone to understand the danger of stigma--those are things that are going to take a much longer time than tightening the accessibility to guns. And we know that guns are, always, the part of the problem that does the killing.

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 Post subject: Re: massive school shooting in CT :-(
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 3:44 pm 
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I think the release of the brother's name was an LE mistake somewhere, either official or not. The shooter had his brother's ID in his pocket. That seems confirmed now since it was stated at a press conference. That error makes more sense than the gazillion other bits of misinformation around, but it is unbelievable that none of the networks seem committed to verifying anything they report.

For what it's worth, Reuters usually seems a bit more accurate, and they often confirm things first.

Maybe what we need is TMZ taking over; they are so mindful of lawsuits that they almost never put out inaccurate information.

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 Post subject: Re: massive school shooting in CT :-(
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 3:45 pm 
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linanil wrote:
Exactly. I'm sure the brother was also talked to but I highly doubt he was even arrested for a short period of time. Police showing up at someone's house doesn't equal arrest. The news is just crazy.

Just to clear up confusion, the brother, Ryan Lanza, was reported as the shooter, and deceased by not only the media, but the police as well. Police went to his house to search it and were reportedly shocked to discover Ryan very much alive. Soon after he was handcuffed and taken into police custody for questioning. It was shortly thereafter determined that he was at work that morning, nowhere near Sandy Hook, and was in no way a suspect.

I'm not sure why they decided they needed to handcuff him and take him into custody for questioning when all reports indicated he was completely cooperative with the police. I think the police may have been so surprised to find out he was alive they just didn't know what to make of the situation and decided to treat him as a potential second shooter.

This includes a photo of Ryan Lanza being taken into police custody.

I feel very sorry for Ryan. I sort of hope he sues the hell out of some media outlets for defamation of character.

Oh, and there was another person detained at Sandy Hook, who was seen running from the school when the shooting started, but there was determined to be no second shooter.

Right now all reports indicate Adam Lanza's only connection to Sandy Hook was that he attended elementary school there, and that his mother was not a teacher. Of course, who knows if any of this is actually true at this point, with the medias amazing track record with this story.

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 Post subject: Re: massive school shooting in CT :-(
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 4:06 pm 
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Am I wrong on this? I feel that "intense police presence" at schools tomorrow, specifically elementary schools is going to freak little kids out, not make them feel better.

At my school, I don't think it will bother students too much considering they are used to observing things like drug raids, and we are a magnet for the criminal justice program so we have K9 demos and all sorts of stuff ongoing (yet kids still find it a good idea to smoke crepe in the bathroom adjacent).

But, the little ones? Isn't this going to scare them?

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 Post subject: Re: massive school shooting in CT :-(
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 7:33 pm 
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i'm watching CNN and they showed a man who came from chicago with "comfort dogs" who are specially trained. such a good idea-- animals are so healing and wonderful.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/loca ... 3873.story

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