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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 11:25 am 
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supercarrot wrote:
just mumbles wrote:
supercarrot wrote:
nope. are IDs difficult to counterfeit?

They are if they have to be matched against a crew roster. And they do.

but if the supposed terrorist is well connected / a great hacker, couldn't the roster be altered as well?


Methinks flying isn't for you.

We need to go back in time and respond to Timothy McVeigh by installing security checkpoints at churches.

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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 11:36 am 
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And racial profiling white guys with crewcuts.

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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 1:34 pm 
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just mumbles wrote:
Interesting article about airport security in Israel.

I don't necessarily want Israeli-style security (suffice it to say that I'm skeptical of the claim that they don't use racial profiling), but there are a lot of valid criticisms of American airport security, and a discussion of some obvious ways we could improve it.

It should say something about how seriously we take security that we pay screeners about $30k and don't require anything more than a high school diploma from them. And it's insane to have a single point of failure.

I meant to mention Israels security, but forgot. Since attacks actually happen, theres so much less fear there. Airport security really isnt bad, and its kind of fun getting interviewed in line. Though thats an El-Al thing and happens at every airport they fly from. I've been asked about my elementary school, my hebrew level--and then had it tested!, and where my parents are from. I had a teacher who was hijacked in the 70s actually and her stories about the changes in Israeli security were really interesting. She said they had plain clothed security scattered through the airport in various roles (including acting drunk at the bar) all on the lookout. I think metal detectors are nice because theyre super quick and weed out any crazies that came up with their plan the day of. Anyone who has a well thought out, crafty, evil genius plan will make it through whatever technology we come up with and catching off behavior is the only chance we have at preventing anything. I still dont care if anyone sees a scan of me nudie, and I would need to hear a bit more about these pat downs before I could declare them sexual assault (I'm sorry if anyone experiences them that way, but to me a pat down includes patting me down, which obviously includes touching my bathing suit areas). The thing that angers me most is the waste of money and time.


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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 1:52 pm 
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tinglepants! wrote:
Methinks flying isn't for you.

i actually hate flying, and avoid it at all costs.

but i wasn't being afraid and all fearmongery, i was just musing aloud. suggesting other ways the TSA could be using their money/efforts better. i was trying to think of ways they could treat their employees fairly/ethically while still being secure. (especially since sneaking in as crew is probably more easier nowadays for sneaky types than they are if they are going through as a passenger.)

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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 2:43 pm 
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supercarrot wrote:
tinglepants! wrote:
Methinks flying isn't for you.

i actually hate flying, and avoid it at all costs.

but i wasn't being afraid and all fearmongery, i was just musing aloud. suggesting other ways the TSA could be using their money/efforts better. i was trying to think of ways they could treat their employees fairly/ethically while still being secure. (especially since sneaking in as crew is probably more easier nowadays for sneaky types than they are if they are going through as a passenger.)


I hate flying, as well. I probably shouldn't live across the country from my family.

I don't see how retinal scans would be any less invasive/intrusive to privacy than x-ray scanners...it's akin to mandatory microchipping (which, frankly, I'm surprised hasn't happened, yet). I think mumbles' link to the article about Israeli security is a good one, if you want some evidence of efficient security that doesn't rely on scans (but I also agree with mumbles, in that I don't believe Israeli security doesn't use racial profiling). The key difference between Israeli security and American is the level/frequence of intelligence used *before* one even makes it to the airport. If the United States were really on baord with preventive measures, they'd be focusing their energies within the FBI or CIA,and not within the TSA.

Still, what's more important to me is that people just accept the really, really nominal risk of flying rather than panicking. The chance of being struck by lightning is sixty times greater than the chance of a terrorist hijacking a plane. All this fear isn't doing much for anyone's quality of life.

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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 12:25 am 
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I have never flown and am now considering taking a Greyhound to Canada and flying out of there when I plan to visit another continent.

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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 12:48 am 
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Someone said to me today that the TSA pat downs are similar to a doctor's exam, so there should be no problem. I just didn't even know what to say.

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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 12:53 am 
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If I wear a lined bra, are they going to ask what I'm hiding?

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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 1:25 am 
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Where else is Advanced Imaging Technology used?

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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 2:02 am 
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Hapax Legomenon wrote:


Yup.

I need to figure out which article stated this, but it's also used in South African diamond mines, to make sure none of the miners are stealing diamonds. Gross.

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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 9:04 am 
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something i was just wondering about in connection to israeli style security and their claim that they're not using racial profiling. in the states, there is definitely a distinction between "middle-eastern looking people" and "caucasian looking people" in that the first are more likely to be terrorists and the second are good solid americans. it's easy to do racial profiling here because there still is that perception that white = american, not-white = possibly not american. however, in israel, everyone looks "middle-eastern" (or enough people look middle-eastern that it's not a distinctive feature) and thus racial profiling i.e. judging people based on the colour of their skin and facial features, wouldn't be a consideration. i don't doubt that they do religious profiling of a sort (jewish v.s muslim) but it does sound like their security process does at least attempt to delve a few layers beneath the surface.

it seems like the states uses both racial AND religious profiling anyway, and now, naked profiling.


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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 9:06 am 
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tinglepants! wrote:
If I wear a lined bra, are they going to ask what I'm hiding?


I hope they do, just so you can say the word 'nipples' to the TSA

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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 10:08 am 
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aelle wrote:


This is so upsetting. I hate that this is where we are a society.


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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 10:24 am 
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littlebird wrote:
something i was just wondering about in connection to israeli style security and their claim that they're not using racial profiling. in the states, there is definitely a distinction between "middle-eastern looking people" and "caucasian looking people" in that the first are more likely to be terrorists and the second are good solid americans. it's easy to do racial profiling here because there still is that perception that white = american, not-white = possibly not american. however, in israel, everyone looks "middle-eastern" (or enough people look middle-eastern that it's not a distinctive feature) and thus racial profiling i.e. judging people based on the colour of their skin and facial features, wouldn't be a consideration. i don't doubt that they do religious profiling of a sort (jewish v.s muslim) but it does sound like their security process does at least attempt to delve a few layers beneath the surface.


I'm sure if you put 10 random middle-eastern people in a line up, Israelis could tell you who are the Israelis and who are not. Further, they could probably also tell you most likely the heritage of the people (Lebanese vs Palestinian vs etc) And although we have exposure here in the US to those that choose to come here and even more limited exposure based on where you live but although middle eastern people have some similar features, they don't all look alike, especially to someone who would be exposed or even trained to recognize racial differences.

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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 10:37 am 
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Meggs wrote:
Remember when people could take lighters on airplanes?
My parents told me of days when people smoked on airplanes.


I got through security at 2 airports with a cigarette lighter in my purse. Not on purpose! I forgot to take it out and no one searched my purse or carry-on bag.

If/when I ever fly again, I would rather subject TSA employees to images of my fat, lumpy body than be patted down. I don't really like either option though.

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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 10:57 am 
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ashley wrote:
Someone said to me today that the TSA pat downs are similar to a doctor's exam, so there should be no problem. I just didn't even know what to say.

If the TSA agent tries to use a speculum on me, they're getting kicked in the face.

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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 11:05 am 
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I like these bumper stickers. The first one is right on for me, since I'm flying (hopefully!) to London next month. So, I really can't see London, can't see France unless they see my underpants.

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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 11:09 am 
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I was talking to someone on the elliptical this morning at the gym. He just flew back from FL and I was asking him what he thought of all of this. He said that in FL, they are working on kicking the TSA out and bringing independent contractors in. He said that the pat-downs he witnessed for those that opted out were extremely thorough, and he would not want it done to him.

When I brought up the x-rays and the fact that we're not being protected from the rays/cancer (I mentioned the article about the breast cancer survivor), that whole thing, he said that he asked a TSA agent if they wear any protective clothing down where they x-ray scan the luggage... nope. Can you imagine what the TSA agents are being hit with on a daily basis with regard to x-rays? When the dental hygienist x-rays my teeth I get a protective cover and she leaves the room...


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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 11:12 am 
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ashley wrote:
Someone said to me today that the TSA pat downs are similar to a doctor's exam, so there should be no problem. I just didn't even know what to say.

Yeah, it's totally like a doctors exam. Just..in public...and not by a doctor...and for a false sense of security instead of your health. so yeah, like my doctors exams.

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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 11:26 am 
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Plus it's already been shown that terrorists or whomever can get bombs onto planes- don't need a person for that! And that guy who made it to Canada dressed up like an old man? How'd we let that one slip by? And clearly, we're doing well if lighters are getting through...(Go bunniee!) but they wouldn't let me have a tube of lip gloss at one airport.

Why aren't we spending this money on in-air security, like someone mentioned before? Oh wait... people are making money.


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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 11:35 am 
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I'm all in favor of kicking out the TSA, but how would even less accountable or controllable private contractors make this any better?

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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 11:52 am 
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FootFace wrote:
I'm all in favor of kicking out the TSA, but how would even less accountable or controllable private contractors make this any better?

Not sure. Didn't get into that, but perhaps they would be better trained? I could ask again tomorrow on the elliptical. There must be some reason that Florida is pushing for it.

Regardless, I understand your point. I believe it's the same as mine: none of this x-ray, TSA, pat-me-down b.s. is serving a purpose anyway, no matter who is doing it.


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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 12:46 pm 
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I'm not sure why private contractors would be better trained. A corporation providing this service might look at more extendive training as harming their bottom line. Take that, Mr. Elliptical.

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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 12:49 pm 
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FootFace wrote:
I'm not sure why private contractors would be better trained. A corporation providing this service might look at more extendive training as harming their bottom line. Take that, Mr. Elliptical.

No, take that, Meggs. I was guessing.
Not like TSA has great training anyway...


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 Post subject: Re: Opt Out Day
PostPosted: Sun Nov 21, 2010 1:19 pm 
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Meggs wrote:
Plus it's already been shown that terrorists or whomever can get bombs onto planes- don't need a person for that!


Yes, and as mumbles already mentioned--no one's screening the ground-crew, the TSA agents, or anyone else who isn't visible to the public!

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