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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 2:58 am 
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choirqueer wrote:
Tofulish wrote:
I met a woman through my moms group who not only is pro-life but worked at a pregnancy center that spreads the idea that abortions are emotionally damaging blahblahblah. And yet, she is really nice. I can see that her beliefs come from a good place, but I am really so completely pro-choice that I can't see continuing to be friends. I dislike someone just for their beliefs.

I just don't know what to do with that.


I'm interested to know why this means you can't be friends with her? I'm not judging you at all; I'm genuinely just curious. Does she talk about her beliefs so much that it is off-putting? Does she try to convince you to believe what she believes? Is it just hard for you to think about other things that you like about her when you interact with her?


There's no way I could be friends with her either! I'm not willing to be friends with people who don't respect my reproductive rights. That's a pretty important and personal issue. I'm not willing to be friends with people who don't respect my being queer, either, I feel like that's pretty much the same thing.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 6:58 am 
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IShe is really nice and kind, and only mentioned the pregnancy crisis center once when someone else was looking to donate formula. She was totally sweet and said that its a good reminder that good people can differ on an issue.

But I don't feel like I can be friends with someone who differs on this issue and has worked at a place that exists to lie to women and tell them that having an abortion will damage them forever and offers courses and books on how to heal. Everything changes people, but my abortions really mostly let me stay the same at a time when I wasn't ready to be a parent. I am hugely grateful that I had access to the right to terminate and didn't have to become a mother at that point and that I got to be a mom on my terms.

I am friends with a Creationist, I've got friends who are omni, religious or not, as long as you're a thoughtful kind person, it shouldn't make a difference.

But its hard to not think about this sweet woman counseling people in crisis and lying to them (she of course believes all the stuff about abortion), and know that she wants to take away other people's right to choose. I also couldn't be friends and just agree to differ on something like LGBT issues, because they affect so many people I love and even if they didn't by definition someone who is against another person having equal rights is a crasshole. I also couldn't be friends with someone who hunts. That said, I am married to an omni, which many people here wouldn't be willing to do, so I guess we all draw our lines somewhere :)

What would a feminist do? There is room under the tent for differences, for sure.


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 9:08 am 
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Tofulish wrote:
I met a woman through my moms group who not only is pro-life but worked at a pregnancy center that spreads the idea that abortions are emotionally damaging blahblahblah. And yet, she is really nice. I can see that her beliefs come from a good place, but I am really so completely pro-choice that I can't see continuing to be friends. I dislike someone just for their beliefs.

I just don't know what to do with that.

My mum and dad are pro-life. It is a hard thing to swallow because they are otherwise amazingly kind and sensitive people, and it's a religious stance that they (frustratingly) don't give much thought to. My mum is a counsellor, however, and she doesn't at all force her (guarded) values on clients, and will happily counsel clients through abortions without judgment. So it's really weird. I honestly think my mum is pro-choice, but when I call her on it she reverts back to her religious stance. My dad would probably be pro-choice too if he just gave it some thought, but he doesn't encounter challenging cases of reproductive rights in his daily life.

Despite these frustrations, I will never disown my parents, but I'll debate the shiitake out of it with them.


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:15 am 
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It would be really hard for me to remain friends with someone who worked at a CPC. The risk they present to pregnant people is shameful.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:54 am 
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Tofulish wrote:
But I don't feel like I can be friends with someone who differs on this issue and has worked at a place that exists to lie to women and tell them that having an abortion will damage them forever and offers courses and books on how to heal. Everything changes people, but my abortions really mostly let me stay the same at a time when I wasn't ready to be a parent. I am hugely grateful that I had access to the right to terminate and didn't have to become a mother at that point and that I got to be a mom on my terms.

This is where the problem lies for me, too. My parents are pro-life, so I know what it's like to have someone in your life who disagrees on a major issue like that, and it is possible to reconcile that sometimes. But neither of my parents are involved in pro-life activism. Neither of them work at places that are designed to mislead and lie to women who are in a scary situation. I think that's where I draw the line.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 11:15 am 
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kfad wrote:
It would be really hard for me to remain friends with someone who worked at a CPC. The risk they present to pregnant people is shameful.


Yes, its SO much easier to find a "Crisis Pregnancy Center" than an abortion clinic or a PP, because the pro-life folks have been so aggressive in terrorizing them that they have to go underground and not be as easy to locate. We live in a low-income neighborhood and we have 4 CPCs but to get to PP you have to drive 30 mins and that still isn't going to get you to an abortion clinic.

I think things are different when your family is pro-life, because its not a relationship of choice (ha!), but friendships are. What draws us to our friends is our agreement on many issues, and this is a dealbreaker for me.

But I do like looking at it, and thank you for the input that makes me feel like less of a judgemental jerk. She is supernice, but I guess if she was a super-nice member of the Westboro Baptist Church, I couldn't be her friend either.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 11:29 am 
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You need to decide for every person individually if you can be friends with them or not.

I like this post about pro-life movement and why one activist left it: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfem ... ement.html


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 11:41 am 
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Tofulish wrote:
kfad wrote:
It would be really hard for me to remain friends with someone who worked at a CPC. The risk they present to pregnant people is shameful.


Yes, its SO much easier to find a "Crisis Pregnancy Center" than an abortion clinic or a PP, because the pro-life folks have been so aggressive in terrorizing them that they have to go underground and not be as easy to locate. We live in a low-income neighborhood and we have 4 CPCs but to get to PP you have to drive 30 mins and that still isn't going to get you to an abortion clinic.

I think things are different when your family is pro-life, because its not a relationship of choice (ha!), but friendships are. What draws us to our friends is our agreement on many issues, and this is a dealbreaker for me.

But I do like looking at it, and thank you for the input that makes me feel like less of a judgemental jerk. She is supernice, but I guess if she was a super-nice member of the Westboro Baptist Church, I couldn't be her friend either.


I do think that it may be an opportunity. CPC's have lied about health risks for years. But, in the case of this mom/friend does she even know they are lies? Most people don't know the facts.

I could wax poetic for days on the reproductive health care topic. But the long and the short of it boils down to education and access... neither of which most CPCs want to address.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 12:41 pm 
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We're watching "Michael McIntyre's Comedy Roadshow", which is a sort of hosted stand-up comedy show. It's about an hour long, and the only female comedian is playing the part of a desperate single woman - so, not actually doing stand-up, and really not saying much. Oh, I think Kylie was supposed to have done some singing or something.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 1:00 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 1:15 pm 
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rachell37 wrote:
We're watching "Michael McIntyre's Comedy Roadshow", which is a sort of hosted stand-up comedy show. It's about an hour long, and the only female comedian is playing the part of a desperate single woman - so, not actually doing stand-up, and really not saying much. Oh, I think Kylie was supposed to have done some singing or something.


I was looking for non-sexist comedians today. that was not much fun... When I was clinically depressed watching UK comedy shows was my go-to thing for at least laughing 1-2 twices a day (I read once that laughter is one of the few moments when the depression can be lifted for a short time so i get why i was so obsessed with it). Now I am a bit depressed, but hoping it's only a winter/end of the year/by boyfriend being gone for weeks-thing, and I tried to the same thing. I cant even watch Nevermind the Buzzcocks anymore.
I find it almost easier to bare if there's no woman in the shows and they do not talk about women at all, because if they are there it is always so depressing and sexist :(

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 2:36 pm 
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kfad wrote:
Tofulish wrote:
kfad wrote:
It would be really hard for me to remain friends with someone who worked at a CPC. The risk they present to pregnant people is shameful.


Yes, its SO much easier to find a "Crisis Pregnancy Center" than an abortion clinic or a PP, because the pro-life folks have been so aggressive in terrorizing them that they have to go underground and not be as easy to locate. We live in a low-income neighborhood and we have 4 CPCs but to get to PP you have to drive 30 mins and that still isn't going to get you to an abortion clinic.

I think things are different when your family is pro-life, because its not a relationship of choice (ha!), but friendships are. What draws us to our friends is our agreement on many issues, and this is a dealbreaker for me.

But I do like looking at it, and thank you for the input that makes me feel like less of a judgemental jerk. She is supernice, but I guess if she was a super-nice member of the Westboro Baptist Church, I couldn't be her friend either.


I do think that it may be an opportunity. CPC's have lied about health risks for years. But, in the case of this mom/friend does she even know they are lies? Most people don't know the facts.

I could wax poetic for days on the reproductive health care topic. But the long and the short of it boils down to education and access... neither of which most CPCs want to address.

My sister went to one when she was pregnant. She wanted a pregnancy test. Granted this was the late 80's/early 90's but she was shown anti-abortion propaganda films about "babies" being torn apart while she waited for her test results.
Their job is to stop a woman from having an abortion and to hell with anything that happens after that.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 3:30 pm 
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rachell37 wrote:
We're watching "Michael McIntyre's Comedy Roadshow", which is a sort of hosted stand-up comedy show. It's about an hour long, and the only female comedian is playing the part of a desperate single woman - so, not actually doing stand-up, and really not saying much. Oh, I think Kylie was supposed to have done some singing or something.

I've caught a few of these on tv here, and haven't even seen a female. I'm not super into stand-up stuff and don't know the realities of it, like maybe it's just hard to book a good female comedian? But it's not like the standard was very high, most of them have been pretty shiitake. Last night there was one guy who thought that because he was fat it was all cool to make fun of other fat people. You know, as long as they were fatter than him and female. For his whole act...

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 3:44 pm 
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maybe even along the ricky gervais lines? aka "oh, all fat people are lazy slobs and just eat shiitake and way too much, I can say that because I eat too much and am fat"
Yeah, that's not how logical reasoning works.

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I have never thought "This coffee is okay, but it would be better if it were oily."


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 3:55 pm 
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Thanks, I appreciate that you explained that for me :) I guess my feeling about it is more like, I'm not going to stop the person from believing what they believe by ending a friendship with them, so if they are able to be friends with me without trying to convert me to their beliefs, I'm able to be friends with them too, just like I can be friends with people who aren't vegan without trying to force them to become vegans as long as they don't try to make me eat animals. But I understand it's different for different people. I'd have a harder time being friends with a member of the Westboro Baptist Church, it's true, but I think that would be mostly because that person probably wouldn't want to be friends with me and probably wouldn't be nice to me at all, so it's unlikely I'd be in the situation of having to decide whether to be friends with them.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 25, 2012 11:58 pm 
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Tonight at Christmas dinner, my mom starts talking about Taylor Swift and how she has a new boyfriend every six months, and she says "how does that not make her a ho?" I was like "ARE YOU EVEN MY REAL MOTHER?!" I set her straight. I just couldn't imagine. I mean, if she knew some of the stuff I was up to....

big props go to my aunt who asked "who says being a ho is a bad thing?"

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 12:57 am 
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And in other news, your mom uses the word "Ho?????"

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 11:43 am 
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vijita wrote:
My mum and dad are pro-life. It is a hard thing to swallow because they are otherwise amazingly kind and sensitive people, and it's a religious stance that they (frustratingly) don't give much thought to. My mum is a counsellor, however, and she doesn't at all force her (guarded) values on clients, and will happily counsel clients through abortions without judgment. So it's really weird. I honestly think my mum is pro-choice, but when I call her on it she reverts back to her religious stance. My dad would probably be pro-choice too if he just gave it some thought, but he doesn't encounter challenging cases of reproductive rights in his daily life.



This is why I hate the term pro-life, because it should be called anti-choice. I know both sides want to sound like the positive, but pro-life is NOT the opposite of pro-choice. It sounds like your mom believes that people who aren't her should make their own choice, even if it's one she wouldn't make for religious purposes. Which technically makes her pro-choice.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 1:09 pm 
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IsaChandra wrote:
And in other news, your mom uses the word "Ho?????"


Right? I don't remember her being in 5th grade with me in 1990, but....

Also, I'm just so thrilled that Jessica Simpson is pregnant again, because my mom is weirdly obsessed with her body and her weight. I just can't wait to get all those second-hand People magazines with smarmy comments written in the margins!

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 1:25 pm 
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It sounds like your mom is a gossip ho. P.S. I say ho all the time!

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 2:20 pm 
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Santa.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 2:20 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 2:34 pm 
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Tofulish wrote:
I met a woman through my moms group who not only is pro-life but worked at a pregnancy center that spreads the idea that abortions are emotionally damaging blahblahblah. And yet, she is really nice. I can see that her beliefs come from a good place, but I am really so completely pro-choice that I can't see continuing to be friends. I dislike someone just for their beliefs.

I just don't know what to do with that.


To my opinion there is a priori no contradiction between being pro life and being nice; I mean, stricly speaking, they just really don't want babies to be killed, which involves they are genuinely in pain when thinking of abortion. It often scares me when I hear pro life people being asparagus a whole assimilated to religious people or even terrorists, most just sincerely follow their heart I think.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 3:57 pm 
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Emilie wrote:
Tofulish wrote:
I met a woman through my moms group who not only is pro-life but worked at a pregnancy center that spreads the idea that abortions are emotionally damaging blahblahblah. And yet, she is really nice. I can see that her beliefs come from a good place, but I am really so completely pro-choice that I can't see continuing to be friends. I dislike someone just for their beliefs.

I just don't know what to do with that.


To my opinion there is a priori no contradiction between being pro life and being nice; I mean, stricly speaking, they just really don't want babies to be killed, which involves they are genuinely in pain when thinking of abortion. It often scares me when I hear pro life people being asparagus a whole assimilated to religious people or even terrorists, most just sincerely follow their heart I think.

It is not nice to force a woman through an unwanted pregnancy.

If pro-lifers were actually concerned with lessening abortions they would spend their time on comprehensive sex ed and affordable contraception. Since they don't, and since we know that rates of abortion don't change significantly (but women's death rates skyrocket) when made illegal, it is quite obvious to me that pro-lifers are about punishing women rather than preventing abortion.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 4:56 pm 
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What j-dub said. I've never met a pro-life person who actually was pro-life and not just pro-fetus. If I met any who devoted their energies to promoting quality sex education and useful resources, including support for women after the baby is born, I'd have nothing but respect for them.

The ones I know are all rabidly abstinence only, let's cut social services, and rah! death penalty. It doesn't really compute to me.

Its as if we went around telling everybody to go vegan and to stop eating a billion things, but simultaneously telling them not to eat anything else.

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