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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 5:01 pm 
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If someone supported sex education and access to contraception and support for struggling parents and also believed abortion should be illegal I would still think they were a crasshole because people should be able to choose abortion for any damn reason they want. Even if they received sex education, even if they had access to contraception, even if they knew they would be able to care for a child financially. No one should be forced to give birth and even if I get pregnant because I don't feel like using a condom that day and am a millionaire I should still be able to get an abortion and if I get pregnant every other month for the same reason forever I should still be able to keep getting abortions. Abortions for every damn person who wants them. (Also I should probably rethink my attitude towards contraception in that case because abortions are not super comfortable or cheap, but the principle stands.)

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 5:14 pm 
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j-dub wrote:
we know that rates of abortion don't change significantly (but women's death rates skyrocket) when made illegal, .


This reminds me: I had read somewhere that, interestingly, the abortion rates in Belgium actually decreased after its depenalization; (it was in 1990; but before that abortion was however tolerated -the docs giving specific authorizations or whatever- so somehow they have data and stats); the reason for that decrease, if I understood well, was that when they depenalized they also focused globally on reproductive issues, like giving better access to family planning, contraception etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 5:34 pm 
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lavawitch wrote:
What j-dub said. I've never met a pro-life person who actually was pro-life and not just pro-fetus. If I met any who devoted their energies to promoting quality sex education and useful resources, including support for women after the baby is born, I'd have nothing but respect for them.

The ones I know are all rabidly abstinence only, let's cut social services, and rah! death penalty. It doesn't really compute to me.

Its as if we went around telling everybody to go vegan and to stop eating a billion things, but simultaneously telling them not to eat anything else.


Omg such things seem so unconceivable in Europe (especially promoting abstinence!!!!! no one does that!?)
This said we have to stay vigilant too... Lately I noticed that cuts are made on women's health or access to contraception without any reaction from the population nor doctors - like when they stop refunding of most pills brands or decided to refund pap twice less often- wich makes me fear we'd be on the same negative tendancy

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 5:46 pm 
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Strawberry, to clarify, I meant I'd have respect for anyone putting their energies towards those things instead of trying to stop access.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 5:57 pm 
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You know, I've thought about this a lot. I'm surrounded by a good number of pro-lifers. It's a lonely world out there for me on some issues. And they ARE nice. To me, to the people I see them interact with, and I've seen them make generous, selfless gestures. I'm also around people who break into people's cars and steal their stuff and drive drunk and lie to their kids and they're almost always really nice to me and people around them. It doesn't mean I really consider them my friends. I just can't consider someone my friend if I can't be open and honest with them about what I really feel and what I'm really passionate about in life and not have a fight every time. While these people are still all kinda nice or whatever, nice or kind or even good-intentioned isn't what makes a friendship. I can be around them and I can carry on polite conversation and I can even consider talking to them to be a good part of my day, but it's not like I can legitimately call them up and go out for coffee and vent over stupid bullshiitake with them.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 6:10 pm 
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Emilie wrote:
Omg such things seem so unconceivable in Europe (especially promoting abstinence!!!!! no one does that!?)
This said we have to stay vigilant too... Lately I noticed that cuts are made on women's health or access to contraception without any reaction from the population nor doctors - like when they stop refunding of most pills brands or decided to refund pap twice less often- wich makes me fear we'd be on the same negative tendancy


Based on second hand stories, it seems abstinence only sex education has replaced traditional sex education in schools. STD rates and pregnancy rates have continued to climb because its unrealistic.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 10:22 pm 
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lavawitch wrote:
Strawberry, to clarify, I meant I'd have respect for anyone putting their energies towards those things instead of trying to stop access.


This makes sense. Basically, I'm not going to be friends with anyone who thinks abortion should be illegal or restricted. And anyone who doesn't think abortion should be illegal or restricted is pro-choice.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 11:01 pm 
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I do have some friends who identify themselves as pro-life. I'm thinking of one really good friend of mine in particular, since I've actually talked to her some about her beliefs. She believes that abortion is morally wrong. She also wouldn't go as far as to try to stop someone from having an abortion, or make it illegal for people to have them. She certainly wouldn't be on my list of people to call for help if I needed to have an abortion, but I don't think she would stop being friends with me if I did have one. I haven't talked to other people who identify as pro-life to the extent that I have talked about it with this particular friend, but I think many of them feel similarly -- they believe abortion is wrong, but they're not going to interfere with someone having one.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 11:06 pm 
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choirqueer wrote:
they believe abortion is wrong, but they're not going to interfere with someone having one.


See, I would call that pro-choice. If they don't want to restrict other people's access, they believe those people have the right to choose it.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2012 11:24 pm 
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strawberryrock wrote:
choirqueer wrote:
they believe abortion is wrong, but they're not going to interfere with someone having one.


See, I would call that pro-choice. If they don't want to restrict other people's access, they believe those people have the right to choose it.


I feel like it doesn't really matter what I think it should be called, since people choose their labels for their own reasons. But, that said, I can see how this position is different from pro-choice. She believes that abortion is wrong, and that people should not choose to have abortions. She won't stop someone from doing it even though she believes it's wrong, but she would not advocate for their right to do it. I think a lot of people find themselves in this situation -- they believe abortion is wrong, and consider themselves pro-life, so when people who are pro-choice insist that if they don't want to restrict access then they most be pro-choice, they feel like they need to take a stronger stance on their beliefs, and since they believe that abortion is wrong, they take the stand of people who are allied against abortion.

(Just to be clear -- I myself am very very very pro-choice, the perspective I'm describing does not reflect my beliefs, I think interfering with anyone's choice to have an abortion is wrong and horrible.)

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:13 am 
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This has got to be one of the most stupid commercials ever. I can't tell which is better, this one or the Bic lady pens commercial.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:23 am 
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My current most hated commercial is that pc fix website where young women are completely clueless and helpless about how to operate or maintain their computers, so they want to go buy a new one and a man tells them how easy it is to get rid of a virus. HATE.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:26 am 
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lavawitch wrote:
My current most hated commercial is that pc fix website where young women are completely clueless and helpless about how to operate or maintain their computers, so they want to go buy a new one and a man tells them how easy it is to get rid of a virus. HATE.

I don't think I've seen that one but it sounds infuriating.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:27 am 
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Was looking for it, and found this instead. There are no words:

Scroll to the bottom. You'll know it when you see it.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/copyranter/11-i ... t-tech-ads

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:39 am 
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lavawitch wrote:
Was looking for it, and found this instead. There are no words:

Scroll to the bottom. You'll know it when you see it.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/copyranter/11-i ... t-tech-ads

Have I mentioned how much it both peas me off and disappoints me when women help to solidify these sexist ideas? Women are too stupid to use point and shoot cameras? >.>

eta: There was also a phone commercial that really pissed me off, too. I can't remember the phone but the whole premise for the series of commercials was this girl who had a crush on a guy and stalked him all of the time, and the phone helped her to stalk him easier (yay? I want to buy your phone now?).

eta 2: Here they are, all in one video:

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:47 am 
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Oh, that wasn't the one I meant. I was referring to the servers that "don't go down either."

Women really do help perpetuate the tech thing--I know so many women who always say they will ask their boyfriend/husband/random guy off the street to fix their computer or even do something insanely simple like install a software program. Even if you have zero interest in computers, if you are using one, freaking learn how! Teachers at work do this; it's distressing. They think it is cute that they can't install an app on their iPhone. Not all women of course, but I've met enough that it's a definite "thing." I've never, ever met a guy, any guy, even ones who paid me to fix their computers, admit they couldn't install MS Office. Girl I worked with had me install The Sims for her because she was "afraid" to do it.

The maddening part is that these are smart, capable women who would most likely figure anything else out on their own no problem, but they are happy to pass tech stuff off to a person with a penis.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:52 am 
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That phone commercial is kind of funny, but probably should have been left on the drawing board. I get what they were aiming for, kind of, but, yeah, doesnt work. Imagine if it had been a man stalking a woman. It also doesn't remotely make me want to buy their phone.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:58 am 
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I was looking at that "going down" ad, too and couldn't believe it. It all makes me sick.

Your post reminded me of something that happened not too long ago to me. I work in electronics and I was trying to help a man pick out a camera and when I tried to explain the specifics of two similar cameras, he just started talking over me about all the stuff he knows about cameras (he was wrong, btw, but I let it go). I then told him that he needed to get an SD card and had to explain to him why he needed one, I walked him over to where we have them and he said, "Now which one will fit this camera?" I told him all of them but the micro SD cards and while he was standing there staring at them, looking confused, I explained to him what the #G meant and he cut me off, rolled his eyes at me and said, "I know what gigabytes are!" Then he continued to look at them and said in a nasty and demeaning tone, "And actually, gigabytes are the size of the picture." When I replied to him and told him how file size relates to the storage capacity he rolled his eyes at me again and literally looked down on me like I was stupid and that he couldn't believe he had to stand here and listen to my stupidity, picked up a SD card, tossed it at me and said, "I'm getting this one and then I'm out of here."

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 3:08 am 
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lavawitch wrote:
That phone commercial is kind of funny, but probably should have been left on the drawing board. I get what they were aiming for, kind of, but, yeah, doesnt work. Imagine if it had been a man stalking a woman. It also doesn't remotely make me want to buy their phone.

Yeah, the ease and ability to stalk (and in turn, to be stalked) is not a feature I look for in phones. I get what they're trying to portray (multiple functions from various locations) but there are so many better, more non-creepy ways to get the point across. How about- hey, I'm stuck in the desert because my car ran out of gas. I can still get awesome service even in the desert and I have the ability to tweet my location and ask my friends for help, locate the nearest gas stations using online map services, entertain myself by watching youtube videos and take pictures of desert animals and upload them to Flickr all at the same time.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 3:28 am 
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Mr. Shankly wrote:
lavawitch wrote:
That phone commercial is kind of funny, but probably should have been left on the drawing board. I get what they were aiming for, kind of, but, yeah, doesnt work. Imagine if it had been a man stalking a woman. It also doesn't remotely make me want to buy their phone.

Yeah, the ease and ability to stalk (and in turn, to be stalked) is not a feature I look for in phones. I get what they're trying to portray (multiple functions from various locations) but there are so many better, more non-creepy ways to get the point across. How about- hey, I'm stuck in the desert because my car ran out of gas. I can still get awesome service even in the desert and I have the ability to tweet my location and ask my friends for help, locate the nearest gas stations using online map services, entertain myself by watching youtube videos and take pictures of desert animals and upload them to Flickr all at the same time.


I just found it darkly funny because I think all those online check ins and updates are creepy, especially given how many people have dozens and dozens of "friends" added that they don't even really know.

Other than that, there is a lot wrong with that ad, even discounting that it's not appealing or effective. For one thing, it minimizes the threat of female stalkers to men while simultaneously playing off the crazy, clingy, insecure girlfriend trope.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:12 am 
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I don't think anyone should feel pressured to learn how to fix their computers if they aren't interested. I don't like the idea that women need to be tech-savvy in order to not perpetuate stereotypes. I am really shitty with Excel but I have to use it a lot at work, and I am always getting help from one of my (male) coworkers. Once I caught him joking about my shortcomings with another dude I work with, and I just said "yeah. I'm not good with it. Do you want me to stop proofing all of your written work or can we continue to help each other?" and that shut him up. (This sounds like more of an intense exchange than it is...this guy and I have a very complicated relationship). He will childishly chide me for sucking at Excel because he's embarrassed that he has minimal writing skills. It's so dumb. But still, I don't care that I don't have tech skills and I'm not going to learn just to bust a stereotype. Computer tech doesn't interest me and I'll only learn what I need in order to perform my job.


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 8:10 am 
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It isn't a matter of being tech savvy; thats fine, not everybody is, needs to be, or wants to be. It's when they do crepe like "oh tee hee I don't know. <guy> will do it for me." And, it's often for completely ridiculous stuff. I can't think of any other domain where acting that helpless and giggly about it would be acceptable. It's the giggles about it that get me. I even see it in some of my girl students. Instead of following the very basic Google Earth tutorial I wrote, they ask a boy for help. What's with that?

I just feel like I run into this all of the time, including at work, where being able to do basic computer tasks, including use spreadsheets, is part of our job description. Asking for help, ok. Giggling and saying your boyfriend will do it for you is ridiculous and wouldn't happen with any other part of the job.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 9:21 am 
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beyond fighting stereotypes the point is also to be independant. If you need your bf to do basical stuff for you it's accepting /needing to depend on them (just like if you needed them to attach your shoes or toast your bread or whatever).
Besides, being ignorant about tech nowadays is almost being iliterate and it is preoccupying that the common ideas brainwash us that its ok for girls to be kept ignorant/iliterate/childishly dependant on men.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 9:35 am 
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Emilie wrote:
Besides, being ignorant about tech nowadays is almost being iliterate and it is preoccupying that the common ideas brainwash us that its ok for girls to be kept ignorant/iliterate/childishly dependant on men.

You see, this kind of challenges my feminism. It's saying (at least to me) that it is necessary for women to know how do EVERYTHING tech so they'll never have to ask a man. I help my boyfriend with his computer woes all the time, and yet I still ask for help at work when I'm writing formulas. And I ask my male coworker for help with hard labour stuff because I'm not a very big person. If he wants to see it as him being manly and helping out a wee lass, fork it, he can think that, but that's not what it is. I think it's fine to recognize our strengths and weaknesses and it's human to help each other out.


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 9:54 am 
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vijita wrote:
Emilie wrote:
Besides, being ignorant about tech nowadays is almost being iliterate and it is preoccupying that the common ideas brainwash us that its ok for girls to be kept ignorant/iliterate/childishly dependant on men.

You see, this kind of challenges my feminism. It's saying (at least to me) that it is necessary for women to know how do EVERYTHING tech so they'll never have to ask a man. I help my boyfriend with his computer woes all the time, and yet I still ask for help at work when I'm writing formulas. And I ask my male coworker for help with hard labour stuff because I'm not a very big person. If he wants to see it as him being manly and helping out a wee lass, fork it, he can think that, but that's not what it is. I think it's fine to recognize our strengths and weaknesses and it's human to help each other out.


That questions me: of course I don't mean that women should know everything (who knows everything anyway!); end it'd be impossible to draw a line about what has to be known absolutely; also, we should probably not try to fight the clichés by being good or better at anything. It's likely not to work anyway. Just like at any other field we would have to be twice as good to be considered as just as competent.
I just tend to think that the more indepedent we are, the best it is (not only in tech but at anything).
And not only about women from men, but as individual in general (But this is indeed a personal opinion)

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