| Register  | FAQ  | Search | Login 
It is currently Sat Nov 29, 2014 3:41 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 90 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Hypnobirthing / natural birth techniques
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 8:50 am 
Offline
Bathes in Braggs
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 7:48 pm
Posts: 1374
mooo wrote:
The object is to end up with a baby, but labor and birth is also an important experience in women's lives and if it doesn't go how a woman hoped it would, she needs to process it and not be told to just get over it because she has a healthy baby.


For reals. We were stuck in the NICU for a month, and I was reeling with some serious PPD. Every time someone said, "Well, at least you got your baby!" or any variation thereof, I wanted to jump out the window. The mother's health and wellbeing is important, too! I've spoken to women in their 80s and 90s, and they remember most of their births with crystal clarity. Those images and emotions associated with your births can stay with you forever.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hypnobirthing / natural birth techniques
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 9:21 am 
Offline
Not NOT A Furry

Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 8:38 am
Posts: 519
Location: Aarhus, Denmark
Oh no, I don't mean to devalue anyone's experience, or to say that their wishes aren't important--and nor did my midwife, I am sure! Only that there is no reason to be hard on yourself if things don't go the way you had hoped/planned. That doesn't mean that you have failed, or not been strong/brave/good enough in some way.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hypnobirthing / natural birth techniques
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 9:25 am 
Offline
***LIES!!!***
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2012 4:10 pm
Posts: 3862
mooo wrote:
The object is to end up with a baby, but labor and birth is also an important experience in women's lives and if it doesn't go how a woman hoped it would, she needs to process it and not be told to just get over it because she has a healthy baby.


Seriously. You also don't know if a woman is having a hard time "getting over it" because her recovery is complicated by PPD or hormonal issues.

And my object wasn't only to end up with a baby. My object was to not be re-traumatized, to be respected, to be able to share an important experience with my husband, etc. I had a lot of goals and I don't think that's wrong or unusual. I didn't feel like a failure for needing medical assistance, but I did feel like a failure for choosing health care providers who were disrespectful and abusive to me, I did feel like a failure for not advocating for myself as effectively as possible, etc. Maybe I couldn't have done any better - I now feel proud of myself for doing what I could have done, for choosing care providers who didn't jump to a C-section (who shockingly never even mentioned it - even though it was 63 hours between water breaking and birth), and I feel proud of myself for growing and birthing my beautiful, perfect daughter. But it took me a long way to get there because the experience itself was so traumatizing. There is very little that has happened in my life that was as big a deal as giving birth (possibly nothing), to say that I shouldn't have any negative feelings about the process because the "result" was good is preposterous. My mother even wound up re-processing her totally unnecessary first cesarean (the second was also likely unnecessary) after my birth, since the fact pattern of my water breaking and non-labor were so similar to hers and had totally different outcomes because of the attitudes of our respective providers.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hypnobirthing / natural birth techniques
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:11 am 
Offline
Should Write a Goddam Book Already
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2010 9:00 am
Posts: 1052
Sorry ScandinaVegan, I didn't make it clear that I was responding to Vantine.

Ariann, it's so interesting, I had a similar situation. My mom has always talked really negatively about her birth experiences because she was ruptured for a few days without labor starting, and then had a horrible experience being induced. She didn't end up with a c-section like your mom, but I was born with forceps. Because of that, I was worried when my labor started with my water breaking. I certainly would have been pressured to have labor induced if I had been having a hospital birth. My home birth midwives had me take my temperature regularly and in the absence of any signs of infection, and as long as my labor got going sometime the next day, they weren't worried about it. I also wanted to minimize exams to reduce the chances of infection. I ended up giving birth 30 hours later so in the end it wasn't too prolonged. I can't imagine how stressful it would have been to just be waiting and waiting for labor to start and to have been pressured into induction.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hypnobirthing / natural birth techniques
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:37 am 
Offline
***LIES!!!***
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2012 4:10 pm
Posts: 3862
Well, the induction was totally necessary in my case. It started 36 hours after my water broke and I was in the hospital before that because I was GBS+ and was receiving IV antibiotics (that sucked). I had five exams altogether over the 63 hours and probably two of those were pointless. If it happens again I will ask to be induced at 18 hours, because since the experience I read a study saying that was the median time of labor onset after SROM at term - so it seems like a fair amount of time to wait and see. (I would like to try a foley catheter first next time, though, it just took for freaking ever to get from 0 to 5+ and the Pitocin seemed like it was causing contractions against a totally unyielding cervix during that time.) I didn't gain anything from that extra wait time except lots of meconium in the end.

My mother's water broke at 38 weeks with me right after a totally unnecessary amnio (checking for lung maturation - she was 38 weeks!). She didn't go into labor, nobody even suggested induction, and at 24 hours (5pm on a Friday), the doctor said I guess you're not able to go into labor, let's do a C-section. She later learned from the nurses that that was his witching hour for C-sections because he didn't like to wait through inductions over the weekend. Her second C-section (with another doctor) was the result of Pitocin induction causing fetal distress. She didn't need to be induced, she and the baby were totally fine, she was just past 40 weeks. (And now of course they warn strongly against inducing a VBAC.) She didn't try for a vaginal birth again after that.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hypnobirthing / natural birth techniques
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 4:44 pm 
Offline
Bathes in Braggs
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2010 6:01 am
Posts: 1296
Location: sunshine coast, australia
a bit ot, but veer relevant to the last few posts http://www.pregnancy.com.au/resources/b ... irth.shtml it's fairly long, but a really worthwhile read


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hypnobirthing / natural birth techniques
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 7:08 pm 
Offline
Should Write a Goddam Book Already
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2010 9:00 am
Posts: 1052
Ah, I see. Yes, being GBS positive definitely changes the situation. And how terrible what your mother went through. Well, anyway, I'm sure you know this, but you obviously educated yourself extremely well and did everything you possibly could to have a positive experience.

Ariann wrote:
Well, the induction was totally necessary in my case. It started 36 hours after my water broke and I was in the hospital before that because I was GBS+ and was receiving IV antibiotics (that sucked). I had five exams altogether over the 63 hours and probably two of those were pointless. If it happens again I will ask to be induced at 18 hours, because since the experience I read a study saying that was the median time of labor onset after SROM at term - so it seems like a fair amount of time to wait and see. (I would like to try a foley catheter first next time, though, it just took for freaking ever to get from 0 to 5+ and the Pitocin seemed like it was causing contractions against a totally unyielding cervix during that time.) I didn't gain anything from that extra wait time except lots of meconium in the end.

My mother's water broke at 38 weeks with me right after a totally unnecessary amnio (checking for lung maturation - she was 38 weeks!). She didn't go into labor, nobody even suggested induction, and at 24 hours (5pm on a Friday), the doctor said I guess you're not able to go into labor, let's do a C-section. She later learned from the nurses that that was his witching hour for C-sections because he didn't like to wait through inductions over the weekend. Her second C-section (with another doctor) was the result of Pitocin induction causing fetal distress. She didn't need to be induced, she and the baby were totally fine, she was just past 40 weeks. (And now of course they warn strongly against inducing a VBAC.) She didn't try for a vaginal birth again after that.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hypnobirthing / natural birth techniques
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 8:22 pm 
Offline
Banned from Vegan Freaks.
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2010 6:59 pm
Posts: 389
Location: Portland
I know it's not for everyone, but I'm really a go with the flow kinda person and so is my midwife so I didn't do any of the classes or anything. We both felt like we'd figure out in the moment what worked. I did do prenatal yoga, though, and I enjoyed that a lot. Parts of it were really hard (like squatting forever!), but it was also nice to relax and totally focus on my body and baby. I also read Spiritual Midwifery and all the variety of experiences in the birth stories were really helpful!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hypnobirthing / natural birth techniques
PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 2:37 am 
Offline
Drunk Dialed Ian MacKaye
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 9:57 am
Posts: 1861
Location: Scotland
BigEnchiladas wrote:
I know it's not for everyone, but I'm really a go with the flow kinda person and so is my midwife so I didn't do any of the classes or anything.

I didn't do any classes, either! I thought I was the only person who didn't -- I didn't even take the free antenatal classes.

_________________
http://reallycrabbycrafter.blogspot.com
http://www.etsy.com/shop/TheTartanVicar


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hypnobirthing / natural birth techniques
PostPosted: Fri Oct 19, 2012 9:29 pm 
Offline
Tofu Pup
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2012 8:06 pm
Posts: 4
This is silly and along the lines of the sphincter law but I found that exhaling while flapping my lips, like a horse, really helped. I had practiced other breathing techniques before labor but they pretty much all went out the window. I had a very normal labor, about twelve hours, and I was doing "horse lips" for probably 2 of them. The OB thought it was a great idea. It also helped to keep the mood pretty light. I had my mom and husband primarily talking me through it which was great. (Ok, my mom did the talking, my husband held my hand and tried to look sympathetic.) My dad and sister were there too and they did a good job distracting me as necessary and helping me get up and move around. At the end a whole nursing class came in to observe. I think that having 14 people cheering me on definitely gave me extra motivation but is certainly not necessary to a natural birth. (The nurses were all very excited to have an unmedicated labor to show the students since they are so rare where I gave birth. I said I wouldn't mind having extra observers but I thought they might stop by one or two at a time. Instead, they all showed up for the birth, it was quite a party...) I really didn't expect to laugh a lot during labor but I feel so fortunate that I did. I was also lucky to be able to give birth in a hospital birth center that was very respectful of my wishes to have minimal intervention in spite of being a high risk pregnancy. My amazing nurse only did very occasional fetal monitoring which was great. When I look back at my labor these are the things that stick out as being the most helpful.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hypnobirthing / natural birth techniques
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 5:56 am 
Offline
Bathes in Braggs
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2010 6:01 am
Posts: 1296
Location: sunshine coast, australia
oh yeah! i did "horse lips" for my first birth and in my second birth, i blew bubbles in the pool hehehe. it felt reeeaaally good.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hypnobirthing / natural birth techniques
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 12:21 pm 
Offline
Wears Durian Helmet

Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2011 8:18 pm
Posts: 896
I was totally planning on "horse lips" and then never thought about it while actually in labor. Just lots of low groaning/moaning near the end!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hypnobirthing / natural birth techniques
PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 3:13 pm 
Offline
Not NOT A Furry
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 3:04 pm
Posts: 499
Location: massachusetts
TheCrabbyCrafter wrote:
BigEnchiladas wrote:
I know it's not for everyone, but I'm really a go with the flow kinda person and so is my midwife so I didn't do any of the classes or anything.

I didn't do any classes, either! I thought I was the only person who didn't -- I didn't even take the free antenatal classes.

Add me to the didn't take any classes club! We ended up watching a video from the library, it was from the 80's, so the only thing we really got out of it was what it was like when we were born. What ended up helping me the most was thinking, this cannot last forever.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hypnobirthing / natural birth techniques
PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 12:27 pm 
Offline
Banned from Vegan Freaks.
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2010 6:59 pm
Posts: 389
Location: Portland
bap wrote:
What ended up helping me the most was thinking, this cannot last forever.


Yup! I tried to imagine and be in tune with all the other women in the world in labor at the same time, but I kept going back to "this is just a moment, savor it, it will soon only be a memory!"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hypnobirthing / natural birth techniques
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 12:55 pm 
Offline
Dislikes Rick Santorum
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 11:51 am
Posts: 5484
Location: United States of New England
do people think the Bradley class is better or the Hypnobirthing class?

there is a Hypnobirthing class available at the hospital we are going to with all the other classes.
originally when i saw the words "hypnobirthing" i was like NUH-UH, i really thought it was some hippie dippie thing where you get hypnotized and try to go into a trance or something. (there is almost no description in the class thing we got)
but it sounds like a lot of people here really liked it and it was helpful.

we were originally thinking about doing a Bradley class but im not sure how many are available near us and one of the ones we saw the website seemed outdated (ie not sure if the teacher is still doing it)

the hypnobirthing would be right at the hospital and very easy to do. the Bradley class would require effort on our part..... ;-)

_________________
Unimpressed Baby Blog


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hypnobirthing / natural birth techniques
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:23 pm 
Offline
Nooch of Earl
User avatar

Joined: Sun Dec 12, 2010 2:18 pm
Posts: 3746
Location: Bella Napoli
Why not do both?

I mean, besides the fact that Bradley is such a time sink. If I had to do it again I'd probably just hire a private instructor to go over the Bradley material with us at, say, the grad school pace of instruction to which we're more accustomed.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hypnobirthing / natural birth techniques
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:31 pm 
Offline
Dislikes Rick Santorum
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 11:51 am
Posts: 5484
Location: United States of New England
mostly due to $$

it's $210 to do the ones we want to do at the hospital (that includes the hypnobirthing) and i think the one Bradley one we saw was $160ish.

i swear i thought health insurance covered at least some of these prenatal classes (we have Blue Cross) but i couldnt find anything on their website. i havent told anyone at work yet that i am pregnant so i cant ask the people here who would know. ;-)

_________________
Unimpressed Baby Blog


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hypnobirthing / natural birth techniques
PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 2:09 pm 
Offline
Should Write a Goddam Book Already
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2010 9:00 am
Posts: 1052
If you're afraid of something being too hippie-dippie for you, I would probably go with the Bradley class. Hypnobirthing is a very specific way of coping with labor, with its own vocabulary and everything, and I think you would only benefit from it if you went into it feeling sure it was the one for you.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hypnobirthing / natural birth techniques
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 11:15 am 
Offline
Dislikes Rick Santorum
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 11:51 am
Posts: 5484
Location: United States of New England
we ended up signing up for the hypnobirthing class at the hospital because it seemed easiest and we just wanted something.
i got my confirmation the other day and it starts in 2 weeks and im psyched to learn more about it.
i looked it up online and it seems interesting.
im down with the concept of it (ie that labor and delivery is a natural process and making yourself freaked out and scared doesnt help anything it just makes it 10x worse) im just wondering if i will be able to calm myself down. ;-) im not a calm person. my husband is SUPER laid back so that will be good.

i like the idea that you're shooting for a drug free, intervention free labor but if you end up needing drugs or intervention it's not a total failure on your part.

thankfully ive done a lot of yoga in my life so deep breathing to stay calm may just kick in naturally :-)

_________________
Unimpressed Baby Blog


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hypnobirthing / natural birth techniques
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 12:02 pm 
Offline
Semen Strong
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 7:10 pm
Posts: 19216
Location: Cliffbar NJ
I did the CDs but not the course, and my doula was Hypnobaby certified and it was a big help. I have one friend who found it so helpful she didn't notice she was in active labor (she thought she was in the early stages and just relaxing in the tub). She called her midwife and her midwife could tell, and she was the one who raced over and delivered the baby 45 minutes after the call.

_________________
My oven is bigger on the inside, and it produces lots of wibbly wobbly, cake wakey... stuff. - The PoopieB.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hypnobirthing / natural birth techniques
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 12:20 pm 
Offline
Dislikes Rick Santorum
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 11:51 am
Posts: 5484
Location: United States of New England
i will be shocked if i can get myself into that mode of relaxation just knowing myself.
i have anxiety problems and tend to panic over stupid stuff, HOWEVER in a real emergency i am always super level headed so i know labor/delivery isnt an emergency in terms of like a gunshot wound to the head but it's some real shiitake so i think maybe in that sense i will realize there's nothing to panic about because panicking isnt going to get me anywhere.

if i can keep myself calm and breath and not freak out i will be happy.

to be honest just reading the words (something to the effect of) "labor is a natural process and your body is built to handle it and panicking and fear only makes it longer/harder/more painful" already has helped my mindset and im no where near delivery time.

babies come out. that's what they do. panicking about every little thing wont help the process. every birth is different so i may need meds or intervention (god help me i DO NOT want to be induced) but in the end whatever will be shall be.

it's pretty easy to say that sitting at 22 weeks though :-)
i just have to reach into my zen hippie back of tricks :-)

_________________
Unimpressed Baby Blog


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hypnobirthing / natural birth techniques
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 12:27 pm 
Offline
Semen Strong
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 7:10 pm
Posts: 19216
Location: Cliffbar NJ
I am generally very level headed and I thought I had prepared for my birth really well. And then my birth was nothing like I expected, so yeah, there was some freaking out. Mostly going "This isn't how its supposed to happen!" I was prepared for interventions, for c-sections, for everything except a lightening fast labor. Better than the alternative, in retrospect.

_________________
My oven is bigger on the inside, and it produces lots of wibbly wobbly, cake wakey... stuff. - The PoopieB.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hypnobirthing / natural birth techniques
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:49 pm 
Offline
Top of the food chain & doesn't need to prove it
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 2:35 pm
Posts: 643
Location: New Zealand, bottom of the world
I LOVED our hypnobirthing classes but can't yet speak to effectiveness/helpfulness in labour because I'm still waiting for this stubborn baby to be born. I practice the techniques daily though and I think no matter what kind of birth you end up having, they can be useful for you.
Two couples from our class have had their babies already, and both had short, calm, wonderful births. One of them described giving birth as the single greatest experience of her life.
Hope you can learn to let yourself relax!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hypnobirthing / natural birth techniques
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:40 am 
Offline
Dislikes Rick Santorum
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 11:51 am
Posts: 5484
Location: United States of New England
My husband and I had our first hypnobirthing class last night and im pretty sure im already a hypnobirthing flunkie. I actually really liked the class. I thought the instructor was great. It was a very positive atmosphere but more realistic than like overly flowerly which would have made me vomit. One really interesting thing she mentioned to us is at this particular hospital apparently there are many nurses on the labor and delivery ward who are also trained midwives and are really supportive of natural birth so fingers crossed I hope I see a few of them! 
So anyways I really liked the class I love the concept of hypnobirthing, that your body is made to do this job and why should so much pain be involved in a natural body function and it’s really fear that makes labor so painful, etc. HOWEVER I suck at relaxation. I already knew this. I have really bad anxiety problems and it takes me HOURS to fall asleep at night because I cant shut my brain off. We did one relaxation exercise at the end of class. Later I realized the point was to evoke a physiological response from just using your brain and relaxation. Basically she had us relax and envision a kitchen that held a lot of good memories for us and in this kitchen there was this fabulous lemon on a cutting board and we were supposed to cut it and take a bite. The point was that we all know what biting into a lemon would be like so I guess you were supposed to salivate at the thought of biting into a super tart lemon or something. anyways, I couldn’t even get past picking a kitchen. I had different images of kitchens flashing through my mind and I couldn’t pick one and got really hung up on that and then when she started talking about lemons I was like “why the f are we talking about lemons and why is this lemon so special???” and it got to the point where I was biting my lip trying not to laugh. I didn’t like there was a knife in this imagery cause we were in a baby class so my brain was thinking babies and then we were cutting things and I was like “oh god!!!” and then when she told us to bite into it I was like HELL NO. So basically the entire time I was stuck in between my super analytical brain wanting to analyze everything and ask why and what was the point and on the other end I apparently have issues with people telling me what to do even in relaxation cause I was like I DON’T WANT TO DO THAT. Meanwhile my husband is passed the F out and he said later he actually had to consciously bring himself from going too deep into relaxation because he knew he would pass out and he’s not really the one who needs this in the end.
So basically the whole relaxation exercise was a bust for me. after everyone was talking about their reaction to the lemon and some people felt their mouth water or their lips pucker and I was like “WHAT?” I never got passed the whole “im sitting in a room in a hospital and someone is talking about lemons.” Oy vey I got a LOT of practice to do.
Then we all got the book and a cd for the class and the cd is called like the Rainbow cd or something and it’s a deep relaxation practice thingy so since clearly I need a lot of help I put it on when I went to bed. I was like riveted the whole time just listening to it. I couldn’t calm down and listen to it “in the background.” And all I could think about is like “so why is blue that and why does that mean that? And they use the color names for every color until they get to red and then they call it strawberry why do they use a fruit name all of a sudden?!?!?!?!” stuff like that. Meanwhile my husband had been reading through most of it and shut his light off right around the start of red (the colors went backwards for some reason) and was almost completely asleep when they called it strawberry and I was like (out loud) “NOW WHY DIDN’T THEY CALL IT RED?!?!” and he was like “dude I was almost asleep” I was pretty much wired for the rest of the night. I think I fell asleep at like 2 am and woke up several times in between 2 and 6.
So obviously I need A LOT of practice. I really want to try though so I shall keep at it!

_________________
Unimpressed Baby Blog


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Hypnobirthing / natural birth techniques
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2013 9:54 am 
Offline
Dislikes Rick Santorum
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 11:51 am
Posts: 5484
Location: United States of New England
OH! There was ONE thing I really disliked about the class. She gave us a bunch of handouts and one was on nutrition. We never actually talked about it but here is what it says about protein:
“Consume lots of protein-75 to 90 grams a day, taken in several snacks or light meals.
Sources of protein-eggs, eggs, eggs (daily), cottage cheese, lean red meats, chicken, cheese (except soft cheeses-Brie/Camembert), milk, ice cream, yogurt, cream cheese, etc”
And then it also tells us to increase our intake of fish oil.
So beans? Soy? Quinoa?
At least it’s not a nutrition class. Maybe I cant relax cause im chock full OF BEANS!!!!

_________________
Unimpressed Baby Blog


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 90 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
Template made by DEVPPL/ThatBigForum and fancied up by What Cheer