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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 5:42 pm 
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I'm not saving women should never ask for help when needed. But why automatically and specifically ask a man? And then giggle about it? If I need help with a task, I professionally ask for help from any competent person.

A few months ago, I asked one of the English teachers to send me a PDF version of something and she said she isn't good with computers, so she will ask her husband to do it. I offered to show her how to save the file, and she just laughed and said she just has him handle computer things for her. This is part of her job description! Being able to save and convert files is actually one of the required computer skills listed in our teaching license competencies.

My last job had a few people like this. Need to add a contact to your phone: do it on paper, a man will do it for me later. Gah!

This just smacks a lot of the whole attitude that girls are not expected to be good at math and science, so it's ok if they don't try very hard. This attitude still persists and it's a really insidious subtle message that young girls get. This is one reason why there is still such a gulf between early aptitude for math and science among girls and girls who go into those fields or who take more advanced classes.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 5:51 pm 
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I can see both sides of that. On one hand, yes everything you guys have said. On the other.... if I refused someone's help and said "I'll just get my boyfriend to help me with this later" I wouldn't mean "I need a man to do it for me" I would really mean "I'm not comfortable showing my weaknesses up front to colleagues I barely know, so behind closed doors I'll have someone I know and trust show me what needs to be done so I can screw up and ask stupid questions and I'll have this all wrapped up by tomorrow and no one I work with will think less of me"

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 5:55 pm 
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In that case, wouldn't someone just say they'll do it later and then ask at home privately instead of giggling about it?

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 6:00 pm 
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At my last job, the tech dept was one male who was fully incompetent. I knew more about most things then he did and he was often making things impossible. In addition to this if we questioned him, he would call us names and screech at us. The owner perpetuated the stereo type by repeatedly saying that only men understood computers. She also loved to call herself a feminist.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 6:01 pm 
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I don't know, giggling isn't that big of a deal? Sometimes I laugh when I'm embarrassed or nervous or feel awkward.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 6:03 pm 
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I mean sure there's plenty of legitimate cases of women doing this to themselves where they think they can't so they know they can't and yeah that's sad, but as a broad generalization I think there's a lot of wiggle room in there for people who don't think of it like that and just need some extra help and if it happens to be a guy who knows how to do whatever it is, then it is. My mom helps me do my taxes.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 6:27 pm 
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I guess I just know a lot of women who think its cute that they aren't very computer literate because they are women. There are lots of things I don't know, but I usually don't think that not knowing them is cute." I mean, I know fork all about cars because my dad takes care of it all, but that's because he is good at it, enjoys it, and Im not interested. I'm not going to stand around giggling about being clueless because, oh, I'm a girl. That's pretty much where I draw the line.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 7:45 pm 
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lavawitch wrote:
I guess I just know a lot of women who think its cute that they aren't very computer literate because they are women. There are lots of things I don't know, but I usually don't think that not knowing them is cute." I mean, I know fork all about cars because my dad takes care of it all, but that's because he is good at it, enjoys it, and Im not interested. I'm not going to stand around giggling about being clueless because, oh, I'm a girl. That's pretty much where I draw the line.

So the giggling is the only issue? If that's the case, I think it's just weird to not let women (or men) giggle. It can be an embarrassing reaction to feeling ignorant, and everyone has that feeling once in a while.

My dad does my taxes and my boyfriend deals with my car shiitake, and it doesn't make me feel any less of a feminist. I just acknowledge that I'm not great at those things and I'm thankful for the help. I don't believe that women should feel forced to learn skills that don't interest them just to bring down stereotypes. If someone is like "vijita sucks at working on her car because she's a woman" that'll peas me off, but if they just say "vijita sucks at working on her car because she has no patience to learn mechanics" I might even giggle and admit that it's true. Because it is. I don't think that it's cute, but it's something I don't mind admitting.


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 7:54 pm 
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I don't think this is translating because we are talking about different scenarios. What I object to is women who specifically excuse not knowing something by saying its "guy stuff." this is almost always accompanied by giggling or other "cutesy" behavior. It's just strange to me. I don't see any of these women acting this way about other things.

I also don't object to giggling! This is all context. Now I feel like you all think I go around judging anybody who giggles or doesn't know how to do something. I promise I don't.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 10:38 pm 
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Mr. Shankly wrote:
I was looking at that "going down" ad, too and couldn't believe it. It all makes me sick.

Your post reminded me of something that happened not too long ago to me. I work in electronics and I was trying to help a man pick out a camera and when I tried to explain the specifics of two similar cameras, he just started talking over me about all the stuff he knows about cameras (he was wrong, btw, but I let it go). I then told him that he needed to get an SD card and had to explain to him why he needed one, I walked him over to where we have them and he said, "Now which one will fit this camera?" I told him all of them but the micro SD cards and while he was standing there staring at them, looking confused, I explained to him what the #G meant and he cut me off, rolled his eyes at me and said, "I know what gigabytes are!" Then he continued to look at them and said in a nasty and demeaning tone, "And actually, gigabytes are the size of the picture." When I replied to him and told him how file size relates to the storage capacity he rolled his eyes at me again and literally looked down on me like I was stupid and that he couldn't believe he had to stand here and listen to my stupidity, picked up a SD card, tossed it at me and said, "I'm getting this one and then I'm out of here."


This happened to my (female) coworker and I today. A guy just wouldn't let us answer a question without talking over us or trying to say more. Dude...you're here because we know what we're talking about.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 12:56 am 
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LW, I have had similar experiences. I've had lots of competent and intelligent female coworkers (who are scientists!!) completely change their mannerisms when they say they'll get their husband, bf, etc to fix their car/computer/printer/AV equipment. It's not like, "oh this person is just more knowledgeable than I about about x", it's more "teehee this is too hard for me to understand". They wouldn't act strangely about other things they're ignorant about...why is it culturally acceptable to behave this way and not try to problemsolve (instead of immediately giving up) when it comes to tech

Eta: as a woman scientist who tries to get adolescent girls into science I see the same switch when een trying to discuss math, physics, chemistry, etc. it's like they just shut down. Frustrating.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 3:50 am 
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giggling is part of the thing, isn't it?

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 6:05 am 
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Emilie wrote:


Yes! Exactly that.

Couroupita--and that is one reason I am a high school science teacher. I went to a tech school and I was still one of precious few women in differential equations. Most women were in life sciences classes and majors that stopped short of the more rigorous math requirement. Different interests, maybe, but there is still a disconnect happening early on that needs forking stamped out. Actually, the geological sciences are one area that has pretty good gender diversity. Most women in science that I know were well exposed to science-y things as kids, or had good role models. Men seem more likely to end up there on their own even without that encouragement. I've seen research that seems to back this anecdota up.

There is a good white paper put out by the NSF and the National Science Teachers Foindation about all these factors. We've come a long way, but it's still pretty depressing. Maybe I can dig the PDF up--I used it for a paper I had to do for my masters (on gender bias in science education)

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 2:12 pm 
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Ugh, I just read about the Italian priest who blames women for domestic violence.

http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/1307366--italian-priest-sparks-outrage-over-blame-of-women-for-domestic-violence

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 3:07 pm 
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I get why people are taking issue with LW's initial post, but I totally relate to what she's saying. First, there's a difference between basic self sufficiency & work skills, and not wanting to be a master mechanic or tech expert. If you have a job where you use computers and share information with others, you need to learn to save and convert files. I think it's ok to ask for help from anyone if you're not sure how to do something. But I dare say that someone who graduated from college and obtained a teaching license should have al the basic skills to learn how to convert a file to a PDF. Similarly, if you drive a car, I don't think you need to be able to take apart and fix the engine, but you really need to be able to change a tire as a matter of safety, regardless of gender.
I have volunteered at a program for a long time where female and trans mechanics teach women and trans folks to work on their bikes. Many of the people we work with are low income or homeless and rely on their bikes as their only transportation. They NEED to know how to do basic stuff like fix flats, put a chain back on etc. because this bike is a major piece of their ability to hold jobs, attend meetings with social workers probation officers, etc. In some cases, a bike has been a major tool in getting the fork out of an abusive situation (I know a woman who rode her bike over 60 + miles of rural highway to get back to the city and away from an abusive husband.)
Even though we were a teaching space for women and trans folks, a lot of cis dudes would try to accompany women to help them -- ie do their work for them. In many cases the women would feel like they had to defer to these dudes, even though they technically weren't allowed in the shop AND many of the female or trans mechanics were a lot more knowledgeable.
I'm not irritated by these women, so much as the socialization process that often teaches women that they have less aptitude for certain things and that they should rely on men for them. It's the same sort of socialized helplessness my partner's mom taught her sons. If the youngest one can't do basic stuff, like unload the dishwasher, do laundry, etc. it's not because he lacks a basic life skill that he's capable of learning, or that he doesn't care, or is lazy, it's "a boy thing."
In short, I think the systems that create barriers between people and the basic skills they need to thrive in life because of gender suck.


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 3:09 pm 
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Olives wrote:
I'm not irritated by these women, so much as the socialization process that often teaches women that they have less aptitude for certain things and that they should rely on men for them. It's the same sort of socialized helplessness my partner's mom taught her sons. If the youngest one can't do basic stuff, like unload the dishwasher, do laundry, etc. it's not because he lacks a basic life skill that he's capable of learning, or that he doesn't care, or is lazy, it's "a boy thing."
In short, I think the systems that create barriers between people and the basic skills they need to thrive in life because of gender suck.


You put it so well. My husband sometimes will get pissy at having to do "women's work" which is so bizarre to me. I don't vacuum with my vagina!

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 3:12 pm 
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Tofulish wrote:
Olives wrote:
I'm not irritated by these women, so much as the socialization process that often teaches women that they have less aptitude for certain things and that they should rely on men for them. It's the same sort of socialized helplessness my partner's mom taught her sons. If the youngest one can't do basic stuff, like unload the dishwasher, do laundry, etc. it's not because he lacks a basic life skill that he's capable of learning, or that he doesn't care, or is lazy, it's "a boy thing."
In short, I think the systems that create barriers between people and the basic skills they need to thrive in life because of gender suck.


You put it so well. My husband sometimes will get pissy at having to do "women's work" which is so bizarre to me. I don't vacuum with my vagina!

Hmmmm. One of us is doing SOMETHING wrong.


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 3:21 pm 
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Olives wrote:
I get why people are taking issue with LW's initial post, but I totally relate to what she's saying. First, there's a difference between basic self sufficiency & work skills, and not wanting to be a master mechanic or tech expert. If you have a job where you use computers and share information with others, you need to learn to save and convert files. I think it's ok to ask for help from anyone if you're not sure how to do something. But I dare say that someone who graduated from college and obtained a teaching license should have all the basic skills to learn how to convert a file to a PDF. Similarly, if you drive a car, I don't think you need to be able to take apart and fix the engine, but you really need to be able to change a tire as a matter of safety, regardless of gender.


And yeah, that's what google's for. Not even knowing how to look up how to do something simply is really a problem of basic discomfort with the tools at hand.

I had to wait to get married before learning how to change a tire (from my husband)! Although these days, almost nobody who is not super strong can change tires without more serious equipment than what comes with the car because of the way the bolts are machine-tightened, so it's not a skill I've ever been able to use.

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I have volunteered at a program for a long time where female and trans mechanics teach women and trans folks to work on their bikes.


This is really cool. It definitely feels safer to learn things you "shouldn't" learn from people who are like you. I felt this all the time when I was getting a degree in the physical sciences. It was hard to find role models and that made it much harder to learn for some reason.


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 3:25 pm 
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I get that women need to know how to do the same things that men know how to do and you shouldn't just use your gender as an excuse for ignorance, but when you're not using your gender as an excuse and people assume you are because you're a woman it's really frustrating and embarrassing. And it's also something that would rarely, if ever, happen to men, you know?

re: tire changing. I hear this from a lot of people - that I need to be able to change my own tires. And on paper, I totally get it. I've had way too many flat tires in my life and I get the idea of how to change a tire. I could pass a written test on it. BUT, the drills that they use to tighten the bolts in a shop makes it like physically impossible for me to take them off myself. And believe me, it's not for lack of trying. Blood has been shed over those forking things. So I get aggravated when people get mad at me for asking help changing a tire. I'll get lectured by my dad for "not knowing how" because I have to call and ask for help, but I'm really just trying to not seriously injure myself under the weight of a car by asking for some help. If my brother called my dad for help with changing a tire, he would never assume it's because he's a boy and boys just don't know how to change tires, he would know it was for another reason.

And I once had a lady go off on me for not knowing directions that someone else was asking for. And not knowing the directions - that wasn't embarrassing, really, I just laughed and said sorry, I don't know where this is I'm not good at this stuff, let's ask someone else. Having her tirade against me for feeding into the stereotype that women aren't good with directions in front of other people, that was probably more embarrassed than I've ever been. If I had been a guy, there's a good chance this exchange would've never happened, she would've just settled on "that's a guy that doesn't know how to give directions or doesn't know where that street is" rather than her assumption that I was either faking not knowing or had learned ignorance about directions because I'm a girl.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 3:44 pm 
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Fee wrote:

re: tire changing. I hear this from a lot of people - that I need to be able to change my own tires. And on paper, I totally get it. I've had way too many flat tires in my life and I get the idea of how to change a tire. I could pass a written test on it. BUT, the drills that they use to tighten the bolts in a shop makes it like physically impossible for me to take them off myself. And believe me, it's not for lack of trying. Blood has been shed over those forking things. So I get aggravated when people get mad at me for asking help changing a tire. I'll get lectured by my dad for "not knowing how" because I have to call and ask for help, but I'm really just trying to not seriously injure myself under the weight of a car by asking for some help. If my brother called my dad for help with changing a tire, he would never assume it's because he's a boy and boys just don't know how to change tires, he would know it was for another reason.


Yeah, at this point being able to change a tire is becoming a meaningless skill for everybody, whatever your gender, because of the nature of machine tighteners. You can, however, ask them to hand-tighten your bolts next time you have your tires rotated, though. That's what I've started doing, because it's not possible for me to loosen them otherwise. If you don't live in the middle of nowhere where you can't call for help, though, it's probably not that useful a skill anymore.


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 3:50 pm 
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Fee wrote:
If my brother called my dad for help with changing a tire, he would never assume it's because he's a boy and boys just don't know how to change tires, he would know it was for another reason.



yeah related to this, this happens to me a lot with computers issues. I'm pretty tech savvy but sometimes I'll have an issue where I really can't figure it out even after trying a bunch of different things. If I do ask a guy for help they almost always assume I haven't tried anything myself, and that I must not have knowledge whatsoever, because they always start with something really simple even when I say "I've already tried X, Y, and Z."

Not sure if that's entirely a gender assumption thing, no idea. it could just be how a lot of people approach problem-solving, i.e. start with the simplest thing. But in my mind, I always think it's cause I'm a woman. I may be paranoid, but that's how this kind of stuff forks with my head.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 6:52 pm 
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Yeah, I agree, but I'm just talking about the people who specifically use their gender as their excuse/reason. I wasn't trying to make a blanket generalization.

Good points, Fee. There is a definite tipping point here. I blame my inability to not get lost on being lefthanded. I read somewhere that left handed people sometimes have trouble telling left from right and latched on to that because I really, really need a reason for being so bad.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 8:15 pm 
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Any one who will defend a rapist. Period full stop. Even if they are actively victim blaming (they sure are passively). I do not understand it at all.

Being told that boys don't know better, but in the same breath saying we should teach abstinence only... my mind boggles.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 12:08 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 2:56 pm 
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how dare people think that. ("ok fine, rape me guys " so SIMPLE)
Thanks for that link...

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