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 Post subject: Re: No TV for kids under 3?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 6:37 pm 
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Nooch of Earl
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Eh, I grew up with computers, programming since I was about 5 (yay apple ii!). Nobody limited my screen time. I don't think it made me a pointy person. Ditto with the husband.


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 Post subject: Re: No TV for kids under 3?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 6:57 pm 
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Butternut wrote:
I think phones and iPads are worse than tv, in terms of sucking you in. At least with tv you might be watching something together.

I think iPads can actually be (or are) a really good educational tool. More so than tv. We have all sorts of apps on mine that Ada uses. And a few of the same ones on my phone. She actually learns quite a bit from them. Lots of stuff with the alphabet, a couple of math things, flashcards, etc. and recently she has started sitting through books that we have on their without us sitting with her. We're also a pretty big computer family. Andy is a programmer so he'll probably have her programming soon. Ha. I will say that we don't take the iPad out of the house with us and she doesn't use it when people come over. I do end up taking my phone out on the subway if she starts getting restless.

I was dead set on not letting her watch tv until my morning sickness hit and I just needed a break. So yeah, she watches a couple of shows a day. We either watch the shows on demand or with Netflix so there are no commercials. She looooves Yo Gabba Gabba and will dance around with it. She has a hard time sitting through Sesame Street unless there's Elmos World on it. Two other shows that she started watching are blues clues and go Diego go. Neither of which I am thrilled about. She found them on my Netflix app and now constantly requests them.


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 Post subject: Re: No TV for kids under 3?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 7:02 pm 
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I will say, I generally disagree with the dump computers into classrooms idea, though, because I have seen it done totally ineffectively so many times. The only school application of computers that was done well, I think, was my second high school's student-administered UNIX systems, because it was this super open-ended thing that students were just sort of put in charge of and learned a LOT.


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 Post subject: Re: No TV for kids under 3?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 9:12 pm 
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Wow! That's an eye opener to what can happen if you don't put some regulations around screen time. That story is going to be etched in my mind. I can just see the family all sitting together in one room not interacting at all.

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 Post subject: Re: No TV for kids under 3?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 9:24 pm 
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Aubade wrote:
One of the main things that recently convinced him to my side of things was I read an article about how all the big time computer guys in california send their kids to waldorf schools to learn woodworking and stuff instead of technology. The thought is develop them into smart, capable well rounded adults first and they can sit in front of a screen all they want later. Whereas, if you sit them in front of the screen all day first, they may never be able to learn the rest.

The 2nd thing was visiting his cousins over the holidays this year, with a 7 and 2 year old. They don't have any reservations about screen time and let the kids watch movies and play video games as much as they want. This year was the first year everyone had their own ipads and it was amazing the stark difference in interaction. Everyone just sat around on their devices and hardly even talked.I think it was really noticeable because we only see them 1x per year, so the difference was really shocking, enough to even get through to my husband. I don't want our family life to be like that in 5 years.


Thank you for sharing that article, it was eye-opening. Interesting that they talk about having the same problem as your inlaws.

Quote:
The students say they can become frustrated when their parents and relatives get so wrapped up in phones and other devices. Aurad Kamkar, 11, said he recently went to visit cousins and found himself sitting around with five of them playing with their gadgets, not paying attention to him or each other. He started waving his arms at them: “I said: ‘Hello guys, I’m here.’ ”


I think I need to spend less time on the computer, in front of Leela. I think her seeing me constantly checking my phone, FB and email isn't modeling being present to her. fork.

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 Post subject: Re: No TV for kids under 3?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 9:32 pm 
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annak wrote:
I will say, I generally disagree with the dump computers into classrooms idea, though, because I have seen it done totally ineffectively so many times. The only school application of computers that was done well, I think, was my second high school's student-administered UNIX systems, because it was this super open-ended thing that students were just sort of put in charge of and learned a LOT.


We were just having this discussion at guineapiglet's school. We want to add more technology to the classrooms but at this age screen time is a big consideration (and the amount of screen time allowed at this age is regulated by NAEYC). We were thinking about ipads, laptops, smart boards, etc. but ultimately the smart board won out and everything else was scrapped because, at this age especially, we believe children learn better through the actual experience rather than on a computer or ipad.

Guineapiglet has tons of educational apps, interactive books, etc. on my ipad but, at least for me, it feels better if we play a matching game together rather than if she's playing it on the ipad by herself. On the flipside it is incredibly helpful to have all those apps and books available on the ipad when we're on the road so i don't have to lug a million different things to keep her entertained. And I can't put into words how the ipad saved my life on a 4 1/2 hour plane ride to California last month.

Like I said before, it's all in how you use it and how much you use it.

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 Post subject: Re: No TV for kids under 3?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 9:45 pm 
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GP what matching games? We don't do many games, just lots of "can you find...." I'd love ideas!

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 Post subject: Re: No TV for kids under 3?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 11:34 pm 
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Carlos watches his Classical Baby and sign language videos while in his jumperoo in the morning. He gets live classical music as well, me being married to a classical musician and all, but we really like the classical baby videos - there is a lot of art in them too.


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 Post subject: Re: No TV for kids under 3?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 11:57 am 
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Tofulish wrote:
GP what matching games? We don't do many games, just lots of "can you find...." I'd love ideas!


They aren't "traditional" games in that they aren't store bought. We just use what we have around the house. She has lots of Melissa and Doug puzzles which is where it all started. Matching the animal/bug/objects together to make the puzzle pieces fit. But we do a lot of matching/comparison games to teach perspective like tall vs. short, big vs. small, red vs. blue, textures, etc. So I'll get a bunch of her stuffed animals together and we'll match the ones that go together - all the monkeys, all the giraffes, all the bears, etc. Then we'll match all the short things and all the tall things, or group everything together by color it can go on and on. This morning as I tried to catch a few more minutes of sleep and let her play on her own in the next room I looked up to see her gathering up all the monkeys (I have a thing for monkey's so we have a lot of them) and then sorting them into piles of big and small.

My pediatrician gives us little list of fun, creative games to play about every 3-5 months. I briefly glanced over the one she gave us at her 12 month visit. It has stuff for ages 12-16 months. It's a bit wrinkly (as guineapiglet believes all paper is to be crumpled, ripped and then eaten). But I'll scan it and post.

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 Post subject: Re: No TV for kids under 3?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:01 pm 
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That would be awesome! Your ped is fantastic. What a great idea!

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 Post subject: Re: No TV for kids under 3?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:03 pm 
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Found a link for the list online. Here you go! http://www.polarisparkwayimpeds.com/Int ... 2-16Mo.pdf

And here's the complete links for all the handouts from age one month to 66 months http://www.polarisparkwayimpeds.com/pli ... ntal2.html

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 Post subject: Re: No TV for kids under 3?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:05 pm 
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You are the best!

Thank you!

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 Post subject: Re: No TV for kids under 3?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:23 pm 
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GuineaPig wrote:
Found a link for the list online. Here you go! http://www.polarisparkwayimpeds.com/Int ... 2-16Mo.pdf

And here's the complete links for all the handouts from age one month to 66 months http://www.polarisparkwayimpeds.com/pli ... ntal2.html


Okay, first, thank you so much for taking the time to find these and second, these are terrific. Brett and I both read them and are really excited to use them. Thank you so much for sharing! I wish we could go to your pediatrician!

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 Post subject: Re: No TV for kids under 3?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:56 pm 
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No problem!

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 Post subject: Re: No TV for kids under 3?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:50 pm 
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GP, thanks for those. I may use some with the parents I work with. (someday in the future)


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 Post subject: Re: No TV for kids under 3?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 10:32 pm 
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Interesting conversation, some random thoughts:

-I grew up with zero restrictions on screen time. I didn't watch much TV when I was really little, but when we moved to NJ when I was 10 I started watching much more. When we got dial-up internet when I was 12, I started spending huge amounts of time on the computer. By high school I frequently spent all night on the computer (without my parents' knowledge, of course). I don't know that it affected my grades - my grades could not have been higher, nor could I have taken more accelerated classes - it probably helped to make me fat, though (I'm the only fat one in the family, nobody else had restrictions on screen time either, but I think I was more into it). I think computers are WAY more addictive than TV by every possible measure. They set up that reward signal in the brain because they respond to our slightest action and we get hooked on that. TV is just super boring in comparison. I still really like TV, but now I think it's sufficiently boring that I can't stand to just watch TV and not be doing something else at the same time (usually playing on my phone or laptop). I don't think the computer wrecked my social skills either. After all, most of what I was doing on the internet was socializing! And now I have a job where I have to interact with people constantly and I seem to be okay at it.

-As an educator, I hate computers in almost every classroom. Almost all teachers suck at using them. It takes so much more effort to create a good classroom environment and good lessons when you add technology to the mix and most teachers are just terrible at it. It takes forever to create a Smartboard lesson worth giving, for example - I have one teacher who is actually good at it and she spends like 10 hours creating a 1 hour lesson and she is a master at keeping the gravitational center of the classroom in the children's conversation and not on the board. It's a ridiculous amount of work and effort on her part. There's also almost no pedagogical value, even if you're doing it well, in having a bunch of technology in the classroom on a regular basis before say, junior high. It doesn't foster the kinds of skills younger children are supposed to be working on. I can't even fathom why someone would consider putting computers in a toddler classroom, when kids should be spending pretty much all their time interacting with 3D humans and manipulatives. The most intense tech I would put in that kind of classroom would be a CD player.

-There is real value to underprivileged kids being taught computer literacy in school and starting it early because the tech gap is a major problem and they've really been smoked technologically by wealthier children by the time they get to elementary school. There's very little value to privileged kids being taught those skills. If you have a computer in your house your kid will be able to use it almost as well as you do by the time they're in kindergarten. They will teach themselves how to type. You might want to teach them computer graphing, programming, how to build a website, etc. in school, but most of that is not happening till later. I just don't get the push to get more technology in elementary schools. It makes me sad. It's usually lazy and it's such a danger to the strength of the classroom community.


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 Post subject: Re: No TV for kids under 3?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 11:43 pm 
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Aubade wrote:
Raspberry Swirl wrote:
Guilty. Lu will be two years old next month, ...Yo Gabba Gabba. He LOVES this show. He dances along, claps, follows the games, and names all the characters. It's nice to see him enjoying himself and not just zoned out gape mouthed at a screen.


That's interesting. My 27 mo. old son loves yo gabba, but he only occasionally participates. I was wondering if it was because he was too young, but sounds like that isn't it. Once in a while he'll jump up and dance, but it never lasts long. He only recently has started participating with Dora - but he just kind of says "yes" when he sees something, or mumbles a bit...

The fact that he just sits there and zones out to it so much is really what gets me upset when he's watching.


Lu doesn't participate through an entire show, though. He will play with toys, run around doing whatever with occasional bursts of participation. He gets very excited during the beginning of each show, then it's off to something else until the show captures his interest again.


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 Post subject: Re: No TV for kids under 3?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:57 am 
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sashi wrote:
Butternut wrote:
I think phones and iPads are worse than tv, in terms of sucking you in. At least with tv you might be watching something together.

I think iPads can actually be (or are) a really good educational tool. More so than tv. We have all sorts of apps on mine that Ada uses. And a few of the same ones on my phone. She actually learns quite a bit from them. Lots of stuff with the alphabet, a couple of math things, flashcards, etc. and recently she has started sitting through books that we have on their without us sitting with her....


In our lives the iPad is definitely more problematic, but it isn't OUR iPad. My MIL loves pushing her iPad on the kids. They will be interacting and playing with someone, and she will out of nowhere bring up the iPad (which to a 2 and 4 year old means they need to do it right away). It's not like she doesn't want to interact with them, but she likes that it is a special thing "just at Grandma's." It makes me sad that she doesn't get that it's not creating a memory or all that special. She gets down on the floor with them and isn't afraid to get physical with my miniature tornadoes, but she never talks about how special that is... just the iPad.

I will look up some good kids apps before we visit them next, though. At least that way they won't just be playing Angry Birds.

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 Post subject: Re: No TV for kids under 3?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:26 pm 
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Ariann wrote:
I can't even fathom why someone would consider putting computers in a toddler classroom, when kids should be spending pretty much all their time interacting with 3D humans and manipulatives. The most intense tech I would put in that kind of classroom would be a CD player.


My daughter's school wasn't thinking of putting computers in the toddler classrooms, that would be completely counterproductive to everything to school stands for (and pointless because, as I mentioned before, the amount of screen time allowed by NAEYC is heavily regulated and minuscule). The school goes up to kindergarten and is starting a grades 1-3 program and they were trying to think of ways to incorporate technology into the learning experience. Technology, but not necessarily computers. It's a private school so we wouldn't even have the resources to come up something like that. The school has a garden and a CSA so we were thinking of ways to help foster entrepreneurship and tying in a technological component to the process, interactive tools for the biological sciences and smartboards in the grade 1-3 classrooms. Smartboards are the only thing that are still on the table as the low-tech versions of everything else, we believe, are better. Thanks for the insights on the smartboards though, that's really informative. We were looking for ways to make our teachers lives easier and it seems like this might just end up being a huge waste of money and time. I'm definitely going to share your feedback and experience with the school's director this afternoon at pick up.

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 Post subject: Re: No TV for kids under 3?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:41 pm 
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ah, thanks for the clarification guineapig. I was really confused by the idea of SmartBoards in a toddler classroom!

Basically a SmartBoard is just a really big touchable computer screen. So what you could do on a computer, you could do on a Smartboard (although if you want to type, there's just the computer keyboard). Mostly I've seen schools use it to show videos (dvds, youtube, etc.) which is like, meh, and occasionally power points (just replacing the projectors of old). I was actually just having this conversation with someone yesterday at a professional development program - they have a smartboard in their school and nobody can figure out what to do with it beyond videos!

My awesome teacher teaches history to seventh graders. So she'll create a giant Smartboard document that has a page (like a powerpoint slide) for each step along the way in the lesson. The slide will have a blurb about the thing, whatever it is, and there will be teaching outside of the screen about whatever it is (lecture, book reading), then the kids will decide what about that issue they want to pursue or learn more about. In advance of the lesson, the teacher has "hidden" like 20 links on the page on photos and words that the students can pursue. So if they want to learn more about X, they can click on a picture which takes them to a youtube video about it. If they want to learn about Y, they are taken to another page which has more background information about it, etc. So the lesson is super deep and totally malleable based on the group's interests. Along the way she also has prepared a discussion roadmap for each potential angle, and if she has major points to make about the topic, every roadmap will lead back there. There will also be thematic links throughout the presentation, so if you want to learn more about a certain aspect of a historical period or a certain value-based concept, you can follow those threads on each page and learn deeply about that issue, or provoke deep conversation on that issue. She'll also have every several pages an interactive quiz, and kids get to take turns doing the quiz on behalf of the class (with the rest of the class's input). It's a really cool use of the tool, but you can see why this is super labor intensive.


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 Post subject: Re: No TV for kids under 3?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:15 pm 
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Based on my grad school experiences, I would love to see powerpoint banned in classrooms at any age. Edward Tufte did a great essay about why it's bad, but the best profs in grad school were the Eastern European and Russian ones who still knew how to teach. Of course the students who didn't really speak fluent English preferred the powerpoints, but man did it lower the quality of teaching.


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 Post subject: Re: No TV for kids under 3?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:23 pm 
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That sounds like an AMAZING application of the smartboard and probably the learning environment everyone dreams about when they consider a smartboard. I wish she was my history teacher - I've never been a fan of history class. Thankfully I don't ever have to be again but just in case guineapiglet ever googles this conversation for the record "yay history! it's so fun!" :) I can see why it takes her so long to develop a 1 hour lesson. We can definitely find better ways to spend money. Thanks for the insight, you have no idea how much you just helped us out!

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 Post subject: Re: No TV for kids under 3?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:31 pm 
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annak wrote:
Based on my grad school experiences, I would love to see powerpoint banned in classrooms at any age. Edward Tufte did a great essay about why it's bad, but the best profs in grad school were the Eastern European and Russian ones who still knew how to teach. Of course the students who didn't really speak fluent English preferred the powerpoints, but man did it lower the quality of teaching.


Seriously, I forking hate PowerPoint for anything other than a short presentation. Lectures that are PowerPoint driven (especially ones where the lecturer just reads off the slide... What the hell guys) make me want to stick a fork in my brain.

Ariann, you hit on a point earlier I've been trying to think of how to articulate. Part of why techies in the valley are sending their kids to lo-tech schools etc (and I know this, because I am a techie in the valley) is that they know the kids are going to get the tech skills later/elsewhere, likely from observing extremely competent computer users at home. These are not kids who are going to graduate highschool without being able to type a resume in Word, regardless of whether or not they are ever taught it in school.

So I wouldn't necessarily take what those parents are doing as a good choice for every family. As Ariann mentioned, for SOME kids, denying them early tech education is going to put them at a distinct disadvantage. I don't know what the answer to this is.

This is pretty far off topic now so I'll end my post here!

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 Post subject: Re: No TV for kids under 3?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 2:40 pm 
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I've used smartboard-type systems before, and while I do have a few lessons planned that work really well that way, they take a whole lot longer to plan than a traditional lesson does. Like, for something I've taught before, I can sit down and write out notes for a 50-minute class in about 10 minutes, then go and teach from those notes. Getting a good smartboard lesson planned and organized will take hours.


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 Post subject: Re: No TV for kids under 3?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:59 pm 
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I know this is still OT, but GP if you are looking for ideas for technology to make the teachers' lives easier I would recommend document cameras. They work kinda like an old overhead projector, but so much better. We use these in conjunction with large screen televisions to display whatever we are teaching (books, math manipulatives, writing, etc.). Having also had a smartboard in the classroom, I can say this set up is much easier. And cheaper.

Smart boards are great for a lot of math lessons, but I would think its more appropriate for the upper grades and not k-3.


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