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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:37 am 
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Larisa wrote:
A lot of the Steubenville case -- not the details of what happened, but the reaction to it -- is reminding me strongly of the Glen Ridge rape case from the late eighties.

That case was terrible. In Our Guys, the author explains that there was no doubt that it happened or who has done it but because the victim was mentally challenged and the boys had "a future" there was a push in the town to not seriously prosecute them.
The girl was portrayed as a seductress by the defense.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 9:55 am 
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This whole case makes me feel that its problematic to be trying to rehabilitate the word "slut" (as is done in Slutwalks). Everything that happened in this case and in others, comes down to the idea that there are sluts/whores and other women. You can do anything you want to sluts/whores because they aren't human or deserving of respect or basic human dignity. And if you're raped, you're just automatically a slut, and then its up to you to prove that you aren't one. And if you were drunk when it happened, or were wearing a short skirt, or out at at night, then it pretty proves you were a slut, because we all know no decent women drink, wear short skirts or go out at at night.

Lutin posted a piece by Sunitha Krishnan that I found interesting for many reasons, including this:
Quote:
By focusing on the victims we are cornering them to “prying visibility” forcing them to hide their faces or run away with shame.
She then goes on to point out that we don't really look at the perpetrators and their backgrounds. The public, the courts, the newspapers don't look at why the perpetrators did it or what made them think it was okay, they look at why the victim did or didn't deserve it. So again, was she a slut or not (even if the word "slut" isn't ever used).

Here there is so much focus on whether the victim was drugged or drunk, her sexual history with Saltsman. There isn't much focus on what she was wearing because she came from volleyball practice and in the early photos was still in her gym shorts and t-shirt. Now they are arguing as to whether she was actually conscious or not: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/0 ... 10365.html And the two accused rapists are already arguing that they can't get a fair trial in Steubenville because of all the media attention.

Its also interesting that Michael DeWine, the Ohio Attorney General (who took over after allegations of conflict of interest with the local Prosecutor (Hanlin referenced above) released a statement that "Not only is the victim hurt by the initial crime, but every time something goes up on the Internet, the victim is victimized again" in order to dissuade the hacktivist group (and compare their investigation to drugging, raping and videotaping the victim), even though it seems like their actions of bringing more attention has brought more sympathy for the victim and brought more facts to light. But again, we're using shame to dissuade the investigation into a rape, which ends up protecting the attackers. And completely ignoring the fact that the victim and her family are the ones who went to the prosecutor's office with a thumbdrive of the data they got from the internet and the newspaper article about the case that they found. Clearly, she wants to have this case prosecuted and she and her family may well be grateful that someone is investigating the events, rather than bullying her into shutting up and dismissing charges against her alleged attackers.
http://steubenvillefacts.squarespace.com/

Larisa wrote:
A lot of the Steubenville case -- not the details of what happened, but the reaction to it -- is reminding me strongly of the Glen Ridge rape case from the late eighties.


Its really similar in many ways, most notably for the slut shaming and the way so many are "othering" the victim but also for the protection of the otherwise "good" boys . For example, the local police lieutenant's son, Richard Corcoran, had all charges dismissed against him early on, despite evidence that he had penetrated her with a stick. He later settled a malicious prosecution lawsuit and got $200,000 from the federal government and then went on to abuse his wife, shot her and her boyfriend and then kill himself. It would be interesting to look more into his life and why he did it, who protected him etc.
http://theopinionmill.wordpress.com/200 ... ogue-2805/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glen_Ridge_rape

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 10:16 am 
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I just read tonnes about the Steubenville case after pointedly ignoring it because I couldn't deal with it and I feel so sick.


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:27 pm 
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I think that one of the major issues (along with the way that slutshaming comes from and props up rape culture) is that the way that we, culturally, talk about/think about/and have sex is still very much in a predatory way.

Man asks woman, woman says no, man pressures woman, woman says no, man increases pressure, woman relents.

That is either the set-up for a sexual assault or every single romantic comedy I've seen in my entire life.

So, with this understanding that men go after sex and women are the gatekeepers who will ultimately relent (and in fact love getting to "pretend" to not want it because it keeps their virtue intact), rape becomes "oh, he just went too far". If we all know that eventually he's going to wear her down, rape is just the wrong way of getting to a foregone conclusion.

Mix that with the entitlement male athletes are taught to feel, and the slutshaming concept that a woman who will sleep with SOMEone will therefore sleep with ANYone and you've got a perfect (and not particularly unusual) perfect storm for really forking horrific things to happen.

And I think one of the questions we, as a society, need to be asking is "what the hell did the boys' parents teach them?" It is every single parent of every single boy's job to teach them about consent, respect and safety.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:43 pm 
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Its not just the parents, its also the culture. These boys were being rewarded with porn viewings by their coach. The coaches had porn, including pictures of the victim and other underage girls on their computers. Its kind os a sick message- do well and you get to see naked girls. It seems like in the 80s, you found your Dad's or someone else's Dad's magazines and saw pretty tame images, that then got traded around. Now anyone with the internet can go to free porn sites and see a gangbang that implies that the girl loves being manhandled and even if she protests at first, by the end she's "airproofed" (a penis in every orifice) and liking it. Porn is a terrible teacher of sexual habits. As adults, we can use it responsibly if we choose, but if that is where you are learning most of what you know about sexuality, its a problem. Abstinence education, sexshaming all means that young people aren't learning about sex responsible adults with a message of respect and mutual consent etc. If we don't teach out kids about sex, they learn about it from the internet and porn.

But the parents have a role for sure. My friend was shocked that she was the only parent commenting on the male student's FB posts that they wanted to "rape" her daughter or that she was so hot they couldn't wait to rape her. The boys mothers are all feminists and highly educated, they just didn't want to intervene.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:46 pm 
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Quote:
. As adults, we can use it responsibly if we choose,


Some of us maybe.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 2:08 pm 
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My point is the narrow one that if children are learning about sex from porn rather than from responsible adults, it is problematic. Like learning about gun safety from Die Hard movies.

I wish we could teach children how to negotiate sexual relationships and deal with one another from a place of respect and kindness. If we don't, they learn from porn, from their peers (who are similarly uneducated) or make it up, or learning from what they see modeled in movies, their parents, etc. And part of what they see in the culture is slut shaming, so let's stop that.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 3:39 pm 
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Recently a Canadian university tried to do a study to explore the impacts that early exposure to pornography have on young men's sexual attitudes and behaviour. They couldn't go forward with the study because they couldn't find any young men who hadn't watched porn to act as a control group.

ETA: that being said, I think that putting a lot of focus on porn ignores that astronomical rates of sexualized violence existed long before the easy access of pornography. And that, I would argue, mainstream culture (re)enforces gender norms and sexual mores that cast as being a predator/prey relationship.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:03 pm 
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Oh sure, I dont want to blame porn for sexual violence, I just think it helps enforcing these ideas.

And just personally, I know my own life would be better if porn were less "out there" in the internet and less accessible.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:08 pm 
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j-dub wrote:
ETA: that being said, I think that putting a lot of focus on porn ignores that astronomical rates of sexualized violence existed long before the easy access of pornography. And that, I would argue, mainstream culture (re)enforces gender norms and sexual mores that cast as being a predator/prey relationship.


The first sentence is a fair point. I'm not sure I understand the second sentence though. That cast what as being a predator/prey relationship? Would you mind clarifying?

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:24 pm 
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Tofulish wrote:
j-dub wrote:
ETA: that being said, I think that putting a lot of focus on porn ignores that astronomical rates of sexualized violence existed long before the easy access of pornography. And that, I would argue, mainstream culture (re)enforces gender norms and sexual mores that cast as being a predator/prey relationship.


The first sentence is a fair point. I'm not sure I understand the second sentence though. That cast what as being a predator/prey relationship? Would you mind clarifying?

Sorry, I was missing a word. "that cast sex as being a predator/prey relationship".

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:40 pm 
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Speaking of not intervening, apparently no one went to help the victims of the Delhi gang rape, even though they were crying out to passerbys for 2 hours. Only after the highway patrol noticed them, was an ambulance called. http://post.jagran.com/Prompt-medical-a ... 1357379960

How can you see 2 injured people and not try and get them help?

I guess the same way you can watch a girl be raped and videotape it and post jokes about it to Twitter.

Oh and in most recent Steubenville new, the Sheriff who is friends with the high school football coach announced that no other people will be charged in this case, including the ex-boyfriend of the victims who "allegedly" told people he was going to get back at her and convinced his two best friends (coincidentally the two charged with her rape) to start paying attention to her. I hope Mike DeWine, the Ohio State Attorney General, who took over for the Steubenville prosecutor because she is the mother of one of the self-proclaimed "Rape Crew" and "allegedly" tried to convince the victim and her family not to file charges, stops focusing on the hacktivists and pays some attention to the cronyism and corruption in the rape case.

Quote:
Jefferson County Sheriff Fred Abdalla, accused of shielding the popular football program from a more rigorous investigation, told reporters no one else would be charged in the case, just moments after he addressed about 1,000 protesters gathered in front of the Jefferson County Courthouse. "I'm not going to stand here and try to convince you that I'm not the bad guy," he said to a chorus of boos. "You've already made your minds up."

Abdalla declined to take the investigation over from Steubenville police, sparking more public outrage. Anonymous and community leaders say police are avoiding charging more of those involved to protect the school's beloved football program. The two students will be tried as juveniles in February in Steubenville, a close-knit city of 19,000 about 40 miles west of Pittsburgh.

The case shot to national prominence this week when Anonymous made public a picture of the purported rape victim being carried by her wrists and ankles by two young men. Anonymous also released a video that showed several other young men joking about an assault.

Abdalla, who said he first saw the video three days ago, said on Saturday that it provided no new evidence of any crimes.

"It's a disgusting video," he said. "It's stupidity. But you can't arrest somebody for being stupid."


No but you can arrest them for rape.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/01/ ... BP20130105

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 10:55 pm 
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I've been hearing little bits about this case for the past couple days and I'm just too terrified to read about it right now (to read the details). I know it sounds stupid but this on top of the Delhi bus rape, I just don't know if I can handle reading this all right now and to know that not much is going to change in my lifetime (maybe in India but not as a whole).

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 2:06 am 
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"US media portrays rape culture as a foreign problem. Here’s why they’re wrong."

http://raniakhalek.com/2013/01/02/us-me ... yre-wrong/

I've been really bothered by the media reporting of the 2 recent tragedies, the Dehli rape and the Steubenville rape. When talking about the first tragedy, reporters are very quick to bring up the oppressive, sexist environment. I've actually heard the term "rape culture" used by a generalist news channel (online, but still, I think that was a first). Yet in the second case Us / Western culture is not mentioned at all. If the environment is brought up at all, it's to say that the specific school or town's culture is problematic, not our culture at large.


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 2:29 pm 
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Ooh, we're talking about porn! Now is a good time to link to Not A Love Story: A Film About Pornography.

https://www.youtube.com/verify_controve ... NQ3SINqnMk

And also mention how terrible this documentary made me feel.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2013 6:04 pm 
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aelle wrote:
"US media portrays rape culture as a foreign problem. Here’s why they’re wrong."

http://raniakhalek.com/2013/01/02/us-me ... yre-wrong/

I've been really bothered by the media reporting of the 2 recent tragedies, the Dehli rape and the Steubenville rape. When talking about the first tragedy, reporters are very quick to bring up the oppressive, sexist environment. I've actually heard the term "rape culture" used by a generalist news channel (online, but still, I think that was a first). Yet in the second case Us / Western culture is not mentioned at all. If the environment is brought up at all, it's to say that the specific school or town's culture is problematic, not our culture at large.


That's a really good piece, thanks for sharing that. I passed it along on FB and to several family members.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2013 9:24 pm 
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My boyfriend and I were having a discussion about this just last night. I remember as as teen in the 1990s, there being a flood of women's voices in entertainment who advocated change, evolution, heck self/social reflection. I really feel in that time frame of the early to mid 1990s that there were women being heard and seen outside of these one dimensional roles we can be placed in. I'm not sure exactly what happened. But I do remember it went something like, some Spice Girl shortening her skirt in a video and exclaiming "Girl Power" I believe that was the moment that we all jumped in a time machine, and erased whatever progress had been attained. And it just fell apart from there. I can only extrapolate the value of having actual strong female role models accessible to the public or how that shaped public perception in that time from experiences of myself and those around me. My boyfriend stated in response to my mention of those role models, "Yeah I remember, dudes didn't f around with girls who listened to "her", because she was smart and strong. And if you f around with her, you'll probably get you dick ripped off." Maybe some women take offense to thinking because they are strong or intelligent that it would imply they would in turn be violent. But if it were my daughter, I would much rather boys see her as strong and fear her, than some giggly girl in a mini skirt, who they could mark as easy prey.

I don't believe anything a woman/man does or says should warrant her being abused or raped, she/he could be passed out naked in a closet and you have no right to violate her/him in any: way, shape or form. I don't care what their reputation is or how they are perceived.

Still what can we do to change the perception and the value of women, and make our selves seen and noted as more than one dimensional caricatures, which are often reductive and patronizing? And by supporting these limiting archetypes of sexes, are we playing into the dehumanizing of women?

Note: This is where someone points me to some other blog post where they have already discussed this. But on the off chance you haven't, I wanted to post my thoughts.


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:31 pm 
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I need to stop being shocked when liberals are misogynist crassholes like every other political mindset.

Some of the comments on an article about John McAfee saying, "The more ugly the woman, the better the sex."

Quote:
about to find myself some ugly women

Quote:
The more insane the woman the better the sex too, but it's so not worth it.

Quote:
Less attractive women are more prone to do freakier stuff. It's not mysoginistic if it's true. LOL!!!

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Well, we usually say in Spanis that, those who screw ugly woman, end up having more sex and in consequence, more joy!

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:42 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 12, 2013 10:34 pm 
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The New Yorker did a good piece on Steubenville: http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/c ... ville.html

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 10:56 am 
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Julie Burchill has just made me hang my head in shame at being a cis woman with her transphobic rant on The Observer's website. Her vile piece of 'journalism' is tantamount to hate speech. I sincerely hope it's pulled from the site asap.


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 1:28 pm 
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8ball wrote:
Julie Burchill has just made me hang my head in shame at being a cis woman with her transphobic rant on The Observer's website. Her vile piece of 'journalism' is tantamount to hate speech. I sincerely hope it's pulled from the site asap.

Sweet forking christ. That was one of the most vile things I've ever read. What a horrible human being.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 1:51 pm 
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forking hell, this is at once vitriolic & heinous and childish. I'm sort of surprised they published it, if this was as racist as it is transphobic would it have ever made it onto the website?

Here's a link if anyone else wants to get massively angry http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... anssexuals

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 1:57 pm 
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I stopped reading Julie Burchill a long time ago because I couldn't stand the vile, vitriolic bigotry evident in almost everything she wrote. I thought this article by Roz Kaveney (a British writer and trans woman) was good:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... -community

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2013 2:13 pm 
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8Ball, I think its brilliant that you didn't post a link. I hate to feed horrible trolls.

Thanks for the article jogirl!

Quote:
Intersectionality is not hard to understand – it's the simple observation that most people having a bad time in this society are getting it in the neck for several things at once, and the way we write about oppression needs to address that.
....
What I would ask Moore and Burchill is this: do you think that what you've written makes it more or less likely that an elderly trans woman living on a housing estate will get jostled on the stairs by her neighbours? Or that a teen trans man will be punched in the street? It's not anger-fuelled tweets, but that provocation, done with malice by people who should know better, that is the real bullying.


YES!

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