| Register  | FAQ  | Search | Login 
It is currently Thu Jul 31, 2014 9:13 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 83 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: multilingual/multiculti people: help me?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:39 pm 
Offline
Mispronounces Daiya
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:21 pm
Posts: 1475
Location: Hamburg, Germany
I don't have much advice, but I hear you, Torque, because it's a touchy subject for me too. Even something that can be meant as a compliment, like "your English is so good... for a French person!" ...ouch. Of course the person saying it probably doesn't know that I have spent an absurd amount of time and effort on accent reduction work, and that as far as I'm concerned if you can tell I am French at all, I failed.

I think the reason it's so painful is that I have built a big part of my identity and my life around the idea of being a language person and an international-minded person. Every time I am shown that I fail at it, it's just so invalidating. It's such a blow to the ego. The key is probably to let go somewhat... but that's hard.


chouettes crêpes wrote:
Gulliver wrote:
When I lived in France I spoke French clumsily but fluently, if that makes sense. It wasn't graceful or poetic, but it got the job done. Once, in Paris, I bought some shoes or sunglasses or something, with me speaking French and the shopkeeper speaking English. She just would not acknowledge that I was speaking French.

why are the french so rude about this! i'm kind-of in the mindset of: if you want to practice my language, you can pay €€€ for a plane ticket and practice in a native english-speaking country all you like. but in the mean time, i am here and making a decent effort, so let's all try to be polite, shall we?


:/ The number one criticism that French people get from foreign visitors is that we don't speak enough English, and/or that we don't speak it well enough. Damned if we do, damned if we don't.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: multilingual/multiculti people: help me?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:41 pm 
Offline
Lactose Intolerant...Literally
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 22, 2010 1:19 pm
Posts: 717
aelle wrote:

:/ The number one criticism that French people get from foreign visitors is that we don't speak enough English, and/or that we don't speak it well enough. Damned if we do, damned if we don't.


seriously. i will never, ever understand why it is so universally accepted to say such nasty things about the French. it is entirely unmerited, xenophobic, and just plain rude.

_________________
Chicken>Lacan all day, any day. -pandacookie


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: multilingual/multiculti people: help me?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:54 pm 
Offline
WRETCHED
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 6:54 pm
Posts: 8383
Location: Maryland/DC area
molasses jane wrote:
The "French = rude" stereotype is really hateful. I lived in France a long time, and still spend a part of every year there, and while the French have really different practices of customer service and communication than North Americans or Brits, in general they are no more or less rude than anyone else, and still Anglophones revel with glee in this horrible stereotype.

There's another way to see this: maybe someone is trying to be helpful? Maybe people are really excited to practice their language skills too? Should someone be confined to pay tonnes of money to travel, as you suggest above, in order to practice a language? When in North America and I hear people with French accents, I get really excited and want to speak French with them. There is a general enthusiasm for the English language in France, and the French learn it in school and are often very eager to speak it. People seek out customer service jobs where they will interact with tourists so that they can speak English. I agree that it's annoying to speak good French and have someone respond in English, and I'm fluent and it happens to me, but if you want to speak French, just keep doing so. It doesn't mean all French people are sneering, rude, and impolite.


I've never actually been to France but from the various places I've been, I've seen a lot of eagerness to speak english and generally people are willing to communicate on some level. The only place I have not personally encountered an eagerness to speak English or communicate in general by multiple people was Montreal where it seemed almost everything was in French. I was able to use my knowledge of spanish/italian to get around well enough in reading and listening (much harder). It wasn't an unpleasant experience though but just struck me as odd since it is Canada but I think it may somewhat be cultural.

_________________
You are all a disgrace to vegans. Go f*ck yourselves, especially linanil.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: multilingual/multiculti people: help me?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 2:03 pm 
Offline
The Real Hamburger Helper
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 2:43 pm
Posts: 2238
Location: Wet and Windy Wiltshire
aelle wrote:
Even something that can be meant as a compliment, like "your English is so good... for a French person!" ...ouch.
I still wake up at night in a cold sweat with the words "pour un anglais" echoing through my subconscious.

I miss speaking French, but whenever I have a conversation in French nowadays it comes out stilted and uncomfortable and I give up and go back to English. I need to go somewhere where I can drink while I speak...

_________________
dropscone - "Ack, I'm no help, I just like to imagine as many people as possible eating roast potatoes."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: multilingual/multiculti people: help me?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 2:05 pm 
Offline
Bathes in Braggs
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2012 4:07 pm
Posts: 1314
Location: Berlin
I even felt weird when someone told me "I have never heard a German speak English this well!!" um, so... you think my English accent is good or are you just dissing other people's accents..?

_________________
http://www.veganinberlin.com
"Money ain't got no owners, only spenders." - Omar


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: multilingual/multiculti people: help me?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 2:14 pm 
Offline
Not NOT A Furry
User avatar

Joined: Mon Nov 22, 2010 5:19 pm
Posts: 516
Location: TN
i didn't mean to stereotype an entire nation. i shouldn't've worded it that way-- i was honestly thinking of a number of specific instances that were very frustrating to me at the time, so i was a little brash. i wasn't taking into account my experiences in france and french speaking belgium as a whole, which were positive for the most part. i think in those frustrating experiences, i find it hard to articulate how i'd like to change the situation and what i find to be socially appropriate vs. what the other person perceives to be polite. that sort of thing is already hard to navigate in one's native tongue/ native culture, so i think it becomes much more difficult in those foreign situations.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: multilingual/multiculti people: help me?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 6:52 pm 
Online
Seagull of the PPK
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 6:46 pm
Posts: 7711
Location: Brasil
Thank you so much for sharing your experiences, people.
I realize that this is insignificant compared to the racism and stupidity that some people put up with every blessed day. I hate to think that there are so many ignorant people stomping on so many nice folks who are well-intentioned. I swear I am the zen master and radiating peace and love UNTIL this happens and then I want to kill All The crassholes. Le sigh.


aelle wrote:
I think the reason it's so painful is that I have built a big part of my identity and my life around the idea of being a language person and an international-minded person. Every time I am shown that I fail at it, it's just so invalidating. It's such a blow to the ego. The key is probably to let go somewhat... but that's hard.

The nail, she has been hit directly on the head. I need to let go. I know this. I need to shrug it off and just say "meh".
Sadly, I didn't get that turtle shell for christmas, and i need to practice just smiling and walking away, and really just letting it go.

Thanks so much for letting me vent about this here.

And pittman-- O-o!! swear words, the best!! hey, have a look at http://www.brazzil.com/messageboard/134.shtml

_________________
Buddha says 'Meh'.--matwinser
I'm just a drunk who likes fruit. -- Desdemona


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: multilingual/multiculti people: help me?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 4:16 am 
Offline
Saggy Butt
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 3:08 pm
Posts: 278
Location: Vienna
Oh man, this is a topic near and dear to my heart!
We have whole political parties running on campaigns to get rid of foreigners and get back to a 'true' Austria. I'm caucasian so i'm not outed as a foreigner until i open my mouth. What i find bothersome is that i'm treated completely differently once the other person finds out i'm american and not eastern european or turkish. The level of contempt drops significantly.
I'm trying my best to roll with always being an outsider but it's really tough sometimes. I have so many of those 2-language conversations, me trying in german and them responding in english.
I feel like a 2-year old pretty much every time i leave my house. Your self-esteem really takes a hit!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: multilingual/multiculti people: help me?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:40 am 
Offline
Wears Durian Helmet
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 1:58 pm
Posts: 829
Location: Hamburg, Germany
Something I am just remembering now and I always wanted to ask somebody from France about it (Aelle?): we went to Ireland last year and in our B&B, there was a young(ish) couple from France who only chose that particular B&B because it was called L'Auberge (they said it themselves). They didnt speak a singe word of English, really. I happened to be there when they arrived, and both me and the Lady that owned the place got them settled in with the tiny amount of French between us. My question is really directed at your school system: Is it mandatory to learn a second language in France? I always assumed it to be the case, but these guys were our age and clearly they didnt have any vocabulary they could use... it was so weird! Even my husband, who only took English classes as long as he absolutely had to and is absolutely untalentend language wise speaks it to some extend.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: multilingual/multiculti people: help me?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 8:09 am 
Offline
The Real Hamburger Helper
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 2:43 pm
Posts: 2238
Location: Wet and Windy Wiltshire
jerusha wrote:
Is it mandatory to learn a second language in France? I always assumed it to be the case, but these guys were our age and clearly they didnt have any vocabulary they could use... it was so weird! Even my husband, who only took English classes as long as he absolutely had to and is absolutely untalentend language wise speaks it to some extend.
I did a 6-month stint as a language assistant in France, and while I'm not certain it's mandatory, in effect everyone "studies" English through lycée (so until late teens). However, very few of them could string a sentence together, but those who tried did very well. I think it's much the same as in England - it's the norm to have language lessons in school, but actually learning anything that you don't just abandon as soon as you've finished your exams is another matter.

There's a strong correlation between countries that have a high level of English L2 speakers and whether their imported TV is subbed or dubbed. Scandinavia and the Netherlands use subtitles on TV, so there is a lot of passive exposure to English. Germany, Spain and France dub, so there is much less exposure to English. I wrote a paper on it at university, and I think it's interesting if nothing else.

_________________
dropscone - "Ack, I'm no help, I just like to imagine as many people as possible eating roast potatoes."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: multilingual/multiculti people: help me?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 8:34 am 
Offline
Wears Durian Helmet
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 1:58 pm
Posts: 829
Location: Hamburg, Germany
Hah, I noticed that when I visited a friend in the Netherlands (not having dubbed TV shows). No wonder I met so many Dutch people that spoke awesome English!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: multilingual/multiculti people: help me?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:32 am 
Online
Seagull of the PPK
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 6:46 pm
Posts: 7711
Location: Brasil
Gulliver wrote:
There's a strong correlation between countries that have a high level of English L2 speakers and whether their imported TV is subbed or dubbed.

this is so true. sadly, such a large factor here. it's almost impossible to even find subtitled movies.

_________________
Buddha says 'Meh'.--matwinser
I'm just a drunk who likes fruit. -- Desdemona


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: multilingual/multiculti people: help me?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:03 am 
Online
Should Spend More Time Helping the Animals
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 11:44 pm
Posts: 6544
Location: Modesto, CA
Mr. Shankly wrote:
I live in the same country I was born in and I get a lot of hate, too. A large portion of my family are fairly new immigrants from Italy and in my family we pass down our names (all names, not just last) so I have an odd looking name that makes me stick out.



My dad came over from Sicily when he was young. We live in an area that is not full of Italians/Sicilians and the people that came over know each other, know my family. However most of them are from the northern part of Italy and they will not let me forget that! By saying things like 'oh we are lighter than you and come from a better area' I get that they think I am dirty or something...

My boyfriend is 3rd or 4th generation Mexican. He has a Caucasian last name...My boyfriend is on the darker side of the brownie rainbow and people are puzzled as to what he is. Thinking that he is not Mexican people say really bad stuff about Mexicans in front of him. My cousin recently thought because of his name he was 'white with a good tan'...If you are my FB friend and have seen the guy you know that is so not true...

_________________
The Stay At Home Girlfriend: A zine that focuses on
vegan recipes, cat love and living with OCD.
https://www.etsy.com/shop/missmuffcake


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: multilingual/multiculti people: help me?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 1:18 pm 
Offline
Mispronounces Daiya
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:21 pm
Posts: 1475
Location: Hamburg, Germany
jerusha wrote:
My question is really directed at your school system: Is it mandatory to learn a second language in France? I always assumed it to be the case, but these guys were our age and clearly they didnt have any vocabulary they could use... it was so weird! Even my husband, who only took English classes as long as he absolutely had to and is absolutely untalentend language wise speaks it to some extend.


It is mandatory to study at least one foreign language for 7 years, and at least 2 if you want to graduate from "general" high school (instead of studying a trade at 16).

However, 1. for some reason, our elites (in a large majority until recently) still thought that French is a major international communication language, and therefore that teaching foreign languages is not very important, 2. culturally, maths and sciences are seen as superior to arts and languages, so brilliant students often don't bother with them -they're for idiots who can't do maths, 3. since the academic track doesn't value languages anyway, choosing "hard" languages like Latin, Russian or German over English is often a strategic choice to get into a "good" class or a "good" high school rather than because you actually care about the language, and 4. there isn't a single oral exam throughout the French education system, so who cares if students can speak a language, as long as they pass the written test?

It's changing, slowly. The development of internet and torrents has helped tremendously, young people understand English much better now that they actually watch shows in English. Engineering schools (among the most prestigious and selective academic track) have added as requirements for graduation that all students must have a TOEIC score over 750 and do an internship abroad. But I had classmates who did this internship in Belgium or Switzerland and really, really struggled with the language test (like, had to pay for drills, and take it many many times before they reached a passing grade). My father doesn't speak a single word of English -literally- even though that means he can't communicate with Wally whatsoever.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: multilingual/multiculti people: help me?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 1:30 pm 
Offline
Dr Bronners, MD
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 5:58 pm
Posts: 4693
Location: Santa Cruz whoop whoop
torque wrote:
CL: well the face is OK, since so many people are europeans, but with an accent like that? people like you shouldn't be allowed here. we can't even understand a word you say. not allowed.


So then you insult them as vigorously and colorfully as possible, and when they act all offended, you can say "I thought you couldn't understand a word I say."

_________________
"Trolling an internet message board, The Greatest Activism Of All." - pandacookie
Вы такие сексапильные, когда злитесь


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: multilingual/multiculti people: help me?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 1:47 pm 
Offline
WRETCHED
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 6:54 pm
Posts: 8383
Location: Maryland/DC area
In the US, unless things have changed, to graduate from High School (grade 12 - 17-18 your olds), you are required to take a language for 2 years. I took Spanish for 3. And in college, the requirements vary. I've heard people say that they had no language requirements in college. I believe I had a year but it could've been possible that I could've substituted language for something else. Anyway, I took Italian for 2 years in college. I had a BS (S is Science, not the other S). BA (A for Arts, not the other A) tend to have more humanties/liberal arts requirements than science type majors but even so my BS needed 1 year of language (or possibly a substitute).

_________________
You are all a disgrace to vegans. Go f*ck yourselves, especially linanil.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: multilingual/multiculti people: help me?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:08 pm 
Offline
The Real Hamburger Helper
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 2:43 pm
Posts: 2238
Location: Wet and Windy Wiltshire
aelle wrote:
However, 1. for some reason, our elites (in a large majority until recently) still thought that French is a major international communication language, and therefore that teaching foreign languages is not very important, 2. culturally, maths and sciences are seen as superior to arts and languages, so brilliant students often don't bother with them -they're for idiots who can't do maths, 3. since the academic track doesn't value languages anyway, choosing "hard" languages like Latin, Russian or German over English is often a strategic choice to get into a "good" class or a "good" high school rather than because you actually care about the language, and 4. there isn't a single oral exam throughout the French education system, so who cares if students can speak a language, as long as they pass the written test?
The French education system mystified me as an outsider; the teachers were all experts in their subjects but had almost no pedagogical training. Classes were more like university lectures than classrooms and I saw a couple of teachers make teenage students cry for not knowing the answer. The UK system is far from perfect, particularly language teaching (I started training as a language teacher before I died of stress and came back as a depressed zombie, and current teaching methods actually seem to go against language acquisition theory), but the French system seemed to be going through text after text (including texts that aren't in English like the poetry of Robert Burns) after text in the hope that the learner somehow learns to somehow understand English.

_________________
dropscone - "Ack, I'm no help, I just like to imagine as many people as possible eating roast potatoes."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: multilingual/multiculti people: help me?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:26 pm 
Offline
Mispronounces Daiya
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:21 pm
Posts: 1475
Location: Hamburg, Germany
For sure. Despite all its grand claims of republican (in the first meaning of the word) egalitarianism, the French educational system is actually extremely codified and impossible to navigate efficiently for 90% of the students who don't have educated, upper middle class parents to navigate it for them (it's been shown that the most disproportionately successful students are those with one parent in management and one in Éducation Nationale, because both parents know the inner workings of the educational system).

Every job I have had has been outside of France so far, and by now I have purged all the French exceptionalism out of my resume. I mean, it's valuable stuff for someone who understands it, but I simply don't have 30 minutes and a white board in every interview to explain the Classes Prépas and Grandes Ecoles system.

I was lucky enough to stumble upon a language oriented middle school when I was 9 (I was hyperactive and my parents wanted a more challenging education to tire me out ; it was either going to be intensive English or intensive classical music). And it's been a complete game changer for me. I can say with certainty that nothing, absolutely nothing in my life would be the way it is today if I hadn't been able to speak English the way I do, if I had "learned" it in the classical system. It's absurd that I got to be the one in a million to have that chance.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: multilingual/multiculti people: help me?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:50 pm 
Offline
Mediocre Tart
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 2:55 pm
Posts: 4602
Location: Scotland
Were they actually using Burns as a way to teach English specifically, Gulliver, or just... teaching Burns?

There's also not a UK education system, really.

That's interesting, linanil, that you are often required to take language classes in college in the US. The US system seems far more varied to me in the number of different options one is able to/must take, in contrast to Scotland where you pretty much just study a couple of courses (it varies across universities, of course, but where I went you take 3 subjects in 1st year, carry on two of them to 2nd year, and then either take 1 only for 3rd and 4th, or the two you brought forward if you want to do joint honours.) There is no need for a foreign language.

When I was in High School (that's ages 12-17 mostly) you had to take a language (either French or German, assigned purely via which class you were in, no choice given) from 1st (age 12) to 4th (age 15ish) year. My area got special funding to start it in primary school ages 10-11 but I believe that ran out after a couple of years.

_________________
"Because sure, I like David Bowie, but not that much."

"I will take a drugged, sex-crazed, punk rock commie over Mrs. Thatch any day of the week" - Vantine


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: multilingual/multiculti people: help me?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 3:05 pm 
Offline
Brain Made of Raw Seitan
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 27, 2010 9:23 pm
Posts: 1212
Location: Under a bridge
There's no set level for foreign language requirements in U.S. high schools, as it varies from district to district. I moved around a lot when I was that age so I ended up attending three different schools... one public school required three years of foreign language study, another public school required two, and the private Catholic school I ended up graduating from only required one. Same thing with university, I got my A.S. and B.A. at different schools. For my A.S. I was required to take a semester of foreign language, for my B.A. (in a different state) they required none.

interrobang?! wrote:
That's interesting, linanil, that you are often required to take language classes in college in the US. The US system seems far more varied to me in the number of different options one is able to/must take, in contrast to Scotland where you pretty much just study a couple of courses (it varies across universities, of course, but where I went you take 3 subjects in 1st year, carry on two of them to 2nd year, and then either take 1 only for 3rd and 4th, or the two you brought forward if you want to do joint honours.) There is no need for a foreign language.


It is interesting! I did degrees in both the US (I'm American) and Scotland, and when I got to Scotland I was sort of surprised at how the system works. But I think it actually makes more sense the way it's done there. In the US you typically have to take a series of "general education" courses during the first half of university unless you go to a conservatory-type school. The "general education" requirements vary from university to university, but usually it's 3-4 semesters worth of course work in a broad range of subjects (humanities, sciences, mathematics, sometimes foreign language, and sometimes even physical education!) The idea is to produce well-rounded graduates and to give first and second year students a chance to figure out what they want to focus on if they don't know coming in, which in principle seems alright, though to me at the time it just felt like an unnecessary extension of what you do in high school.

/end tangent


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: multilingual/multiculti people: help me?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 3:21 pm 
Offline
Trapped On A Desert Island With A Cow
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 8:54 pm
Posts: 409
Location: Ozone Park, NY
I grew up in Italy, and as a half Italian/half Dutch kid I was sometimes picked on by the other kids. Not in school, just outside because it was small town and everyone knew who I was..."The Dutch Girl". I didn't really care, because I was proud of being mixed as that was very rare in small town Southern Italy back then. Now I live in the US, and I have my Italian accent and I hope I never lose it. Nobody has ever commented negatively on it, so I am not sure how I would react!

In Italy, you start studying a second language in junior high. It's mandatory and you get to express a preference for either English or French. They will try to accomodate you, but you might not get your choice if there are too many kids picking the same thing. I went to a high school that specialized in languages, so after 3 years in junior high, I did another 5 years of English, French and German. They were full immersion and we did study not only grammar/vocabulary but also the history and literature of both France and the UK. So we went through everything, from the "Chanson de Roland" to Sartre and from Chaucer to Joyce. And yes, Burns too.

I did retain a lot of French (obviously English as well, since we moved to the US), and now I can not learn another language anymore because I can't find a way to learn it like I did in school. I do NOT want to learn how to say "Where is the station?". I want to learn the nuts and bolts of each language.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: multilingual/multiculti people: help me?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 3:27 pm 
Offline
Drunk Dialed Ian MacKaye
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 3:06 pm
Posts: 1822
Location: Windmill Central
I'll weigh in on this since I often experience it in the Netherlands in one way or another. I don't usually have good things to say back to someone, because no matter how often it happens it still catches me off guard and depending on the mood I'm in that day it can just be a minor annoyance or turn into something I brood and cry about for days (yay, depression!).

I know that whole-cloth cultural stereotypes are hateful and have to remind myself often that "this is not the country being a jerk to you...this is just a jerk being a jerk to you." But I can see how people grow to resent an entire place because of their experiences. It's hard some days not to say, "screw you, current country! you're all a bunch of way-too-direct, impolite and cold people that don't understand my feelings!" But those are the bad days.

I have to keep trying to understand the cultural differences at play. I have a lot of discussions with my colleagues about this and with my students, many of whom come from living all over the world. Some of my Dutch colleagues find the politeness of our English colleagues to be so annoying. They see it as fake and assume it to be such. My Dutch bf feels the same way. However, I remind them that politeness is part of who they are! I'm not being fake when I'm being so polite to people. I was raised in the south...I would feel uncomfortable being any other way to someone. Alternately, the English/American colleagues find the Dutch directness or matter-of-factness to be cold and abrupt and often mistake it as rudeness. I say this like I haven't mistaken it myself, but I do all the time. And then there's the issue of having to detect when someone is actually trying to be rude to you...

It's all a mess. My advice would be to say something like "You know, I'm still getting used to the directness here. I'm so used to people being patient with foreigners. You caught me off guard!"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: multilingual/multiculti people: help me?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 3:30 pm 
Offline
Drunk Dialed Ian MacKaye
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 3:06 pm
Posts: 1822
Location: Windmill Central
torque wrote:
Thank you so much for sharing your experiences, people.
I realize that this is insignificant compared to the racism and stupidity that some people put up with every blessed day. I hate to think that there are so many ignorant people stomping on so many nice folks who are well-intentioned. I swear I am the zen master and radiating peace and love UNTIL this happens and then I want to kill All The crassholes. Le sigh.


aelle wrote:
I think the reason it's so painful is that I have built a big part of my identity and my life around the idea of being a language person and an international-minded person. Every time I am shown that I fail at it, it's just so invalidating. It's such a blow to the ego. The key is probably to let go somewhat... but that's hard.

The nail, she has been hit directly on the head. I need to let go. I know this. I need to shrug it off and just say "meh".
Sadly, I didn't get that turtle shell for christmas, and i need to practice just smiling and walking away, and really just letting it go.

Thanks so much for letting me vent about this here.

And pittman-- O-o!! swear words, the best!! hey, have a look at http://www.brazzil.com/messageboard/134.shtml


Yep. The fear of failure and not being able to let go and accept the comments is a big hurdle to me learning Dutch.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: multilingual/multiculti people: help me?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 3:34 pm 
Offline
WRETCHED
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2010 6:54 pm
Posts: 8383
Location: Maryland/DC area
I was watching House Hunters (in Korea) when I was visiting my parents and one remarks they said about the culture is that people don't usually talk to other people unless they have a reason. It sounded like a dream to me :) I mean, not that I don't like people but I'm shy and can feel awkward.

_________________
You are all a disgrace to vegans. Go f*ck yourselves, especially linanil.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: multilingual/multiculti people: help me?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 3:39 pm 
Offline
Mediocre Tart
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 2:55 pm
Posts: 4602
Location: Scotland
Limone wrote:
It is interesting! I did degrees in both the US (I'm American) and Scotland, and when I got to Scotland I was sort of surprised at how the system works. But I think it actually makes more sense the way it's done there. In the US you typically have to take a series of "general education" courses during the first half of university unless you go to a conservatory-type school. The "general education" requirements vary from university to university, but usually it's 3-4 semesters worth of course work in a broad range of subjects (humanities, sciences, mathematics, sometimes foreign language, and sometimes even physical education!) The idea is to produce well-rounded graduates and to give first and second year students a chance to figure out what they want to focus on if they don't know coming in, which in principle seems alright, though to me at the time it just felt like an unnecessary extension of what you do in high school.

/end tangent

And, y'know, as much as I would never ever have wanted to take maths or physical education, I think the vague notions I have of the US uni system are more appealing in a way! By which I mean, as you say, to "give first and second year students a chance to figure out what they want to focus on" etc. Here, you're pretty much picking what you want to study when you are 16... who the fork knows anything about anything when they're 16? Ok, well, given what I've learned off some awesome teenage ppkers, loads seem to. But hell did I know!

//double end tangent ;)

_________________
"Because sure, I like David Bowie, but not that much."

"I will take a drugged, sex-crazed, punk rock commie over Mrs. Thatch any day of the week" - Vantine


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 83 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], jordanpattern, lobsteriffic, SimVeggie, torque, Tzippy and 12 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
Template made by DEVPPL/ThatBigForum and fancied up by What Cheer