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 Post subject: Re: Smart Kids
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:12 am 
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I feel for you, I actually struggled to read in 1st grade, according to my mom, but once I did, I didn't stop reading and apparently zoomed ahead of the other kids which left me bored and disengaged with everything except harder math and science classes. Despite being put into some advance classes, I didn't even really start 'trying' at school until I was in the 9th grade and realized that if I didn't start caring about school (and my grades), that I wouldn't be able to go to college. Luckily, I was able to play catch up pretty well and graduated near the top of my high school class. I think it did leave me lazy though.

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 Post subject: Re: Smart Kids
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:21 am 
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Ariann wrote:
What the elementary teachers in this thread said was brilliant.


Yes! And I'll say that it describes what we're going through pretty well. Kid's teacher is fairly new; I think it may be her fourth or fifth year in kindergarten and her educational background is more in line with Montesourri-like principles but she's in a regular public school and she has to follow that curriculum. This year I know she has a few exceptional students and a student or two who came in with limited English. She is working SO hard to make things work for my kid, but I know there is only so much one person can do. She's working to learn how to handle a kid so far ahead on everything and has even said that at least in the future she will be better prepared. So she's great, and she cares, but she's learning as she goes.

I just wish there was more support for gifted kids early, waiting until third grade to implement enriched learning kills me.


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 Post subject: Re: Smart Kids
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:37 am 
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littlebird wrote:
anyway, it sounds like maybe this teacher isn't able to really deal with the issue effectively. first step would be to not have livi do her homework if it's too easy or repetitive. let the teacher know what you're doing, tell her you'll be working on some other concepts, but don't stress trying to get livi to do something boring and pointless. i disagree with kindergarten homework philosophically anyway, but especially if it's busywork. if the teacher is amenable, ask for some ideas of concepts to approach, but if not, don't stress, just read and talk about subjects livi finds interesting... she does NOT need to get into the habit of homework this young.

very realistically though, livi is bright and socially adept and will probably never struggle academically, but she's probably not gifted. if she is, it's way too early to tell now, and high reading level at this age is indicative of very little but that she's mastered the mechanics of reading.

is she having fun in class? if she is engaged and enjoying and being challenged in at least one or two areas (including social or interpersonal skills) then i would just drop the boring, repetitive worksheets, and wait to see how it goes next year. i like kelly's approach of talking about how kindergarten is about lots of other things besides numbers and letters.


this is a fabulous idea. i mean, she's in a class where kids don't read at home (the 2nd best reader in her class has logged like 10 books that he's read since the start of school - they log books they read and chapters count as 1 book if it's a bigger book, and livi's at 992 or so) and the parents don't even look in the folders that get sent home with the kids.

in general i agree about K not needing homework, but Livi has loved that kind of thing since she was like 3 (those brain quest cards and books and whatnot). from now on I will find more appropriate stuff for her and we'll do that!

I am totally cool if she isn't gifted - as long as she enjoys reading, that's really all that matters to me, scholastically speaking.

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 Post subject: Re: Smart Kids
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:31 pm 
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Agreed about not doing the boring homework. This will only make Livi resent school. :(

Ditto to the idea too that the teacher should be making some accommodation for her. It's frustrating to me sometimes that the frustrations of a kid who's doing well are sometimes ignored because they already know "what they need to know at their level" (don't even get me started). No one suggests that a kid at the other end of the curve should have their needs ignored.

(can you tell I was the precocious, bored kid in elementary school)

One of the things we did with my nanny girls was to adopt a sort of Reggio approach, often discussing/learning about just a few subject areas at a time, but to great depth. When I taught preschool, we used a project approach as well, but this was the first time I'd done so at a home. We learned about escalator mechanics, how to plant grass, what goes into falafel and Lard only knows what else. We made books about things we'd learned sometimes, or a small storyboard with pictures. We wrote down things that we wanted to find out more about, so we wouldn't forget (like what happens when stuff gets left on the bus). We took "field trips" related to their interests, etc.

Do they even do gifted/talented programs in schools in the US anymore? The ones I worked with in Chicago area were sort of phasing out the idea as being un-p.c. I loved, loved, LOVED my G&T classes in upper el. We made radios and staged a production of the Odyssey. Went back to high school and very in-the-box sort of learning and my grades plummeted.


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 Post subject: Re: Smart Kids
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 6:45 pm 
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mooo wrote:
I agree that being ahead doesn't really benefit kids. In my experience, I think it actually made me lazy because I was so used to school being so easy that I never had to do any studying. I honestly haven't researched it very much yet, but I like the Waldorf philosophy of not even teaching reading until an older age.

(Sorry appifanie, totally unhelpful, those are just my thoughts on the conversation.)


There's some pretty good reason to be wary of Waldorf schools: http://www.montessorianswers.com/my-exp ... ldorf.html.

When I'm not out the door, I can provide some more links that corroborate the experiences above, though I do agree with allowing a delayed reading schedule if it works for kids. I'm for alternative forms of learning and some unstructured independence, but Waldorf is a system that's detrimental to any form of learning.

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 Post subject: Re: Smart Kids
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:06 pm 
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I don't know too much about kindergarten-age kids, but for older elementary kids, the Center for Talented Youth programs are great. They have summer programs, and also online courses. (I attended when I was a kid, and taught for a few summers when I was in grad school.) The social aspect of the summer programs is also really important -- the kids get to meet and be friends with and be in class with other kids who are at their level.

Also, just make sure your kid has access to the library and internet and local classes and whatever other learning opportunities there are. Some kids (I was one of them) just don't learn too well in a structured classroom, and this is even more true of gifted kids, who frequently tend to make big jumps in learning alternating with times when they seem to be pretty much standing still, rather than learning gradually like most kids do.


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 Post subject: Re: Smart Kids
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:12 pm 
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ugh. waldorf. don't even get me started. racist, ableist, creeptastic german woo of the highest order. yeah... waldorf is bad news.


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 Post subject: Re: Smart Kids
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:38 pm 
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I don't know anything about Waldorf, but I can see from my own family of a bazillion kids that kids can read at wildly different ages and come out having about equivalent reading skills. One of my sisters refused to read until 2nd grade. Just refused. On principle or something.


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 Post subject: Re: Smart Kids
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:49 pm 
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I did that! I just announced that I wasn't going to read until kindergarten and that was that. My husband was reading by 2.5 so I really hope she takes after him instead. Vi's speech is probably below average, though, so I'm not holding my breath.


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 Post subject: Re: Smart Kids
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:58 pm 
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Malka's speech is definitely below average (or at least below our same-age friends') and she is off-the-wall physically adventurous. She is so unlike me as a child and I console myself with thinking she'll turn out like my reading refusal, hyperactive sister, who is actually totally brilliant and creative and amazing. There are worse things.


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 Post subject: Re: Smart Kids
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:09 pm 
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There are indeed, mostly I just can't wait until she can read so she can self-entertain a little better. Not that this really seems to work for friends' kids.


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 Post subject: Re: Smart Kids
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:58 am 
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Livi was a tiny bit behind average for speaking as well but it turned out she was just taking it all in :)

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 Post subject: Re: Smart Kids
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:33 pm 
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I didn't know Waldorf was so loony until I read that article.

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 Post subject: Re: Smart Kids
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:43 pm 
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FootFace wrote:
I didn't know Waldorf was so loony until I read that article.


Yeah, I don't know anything about it except I remember learning that in Waldorf schools the same class of students stays with the same teacher until 8th grade? So you're with the same classroom teacher from k-8. I could be wrong about that or maybe it's just for the school in my area, I don't know. Anyway, I would have great reservations about my kid staying with the same teacher for so long. One of the reasons homeschooling is not for me (different topic admittedly) is that I see the benefit in a child getting away from one's family and having exposure to different points of view, cultures, etc. I think it would be suffocating to be with the same group and teacher for so long.


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 Post subject: Re: Smart Kids
PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 3:40 pm 
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So, I said I'd provide a few more links for why Waldorf schools aren't healthy environments. The link I provided above was written by someone who supports Montessori education, and I think the two are often seen as rivals (though they're not), just because they're the two most well-known forms of alternative schooling for kids. So, to offer some cross-referencing and not one bias:

I thought this article was pretty good: http://www.dcscience.net/?p=3528

I also read all the links provided on the Wikipedia page about Waldorf (well, not all the links. I started with the sub-heading Pseudoscience and reading everything from that point until the end. I don't ever take anything Wikipedia says as fact, but I do think they're a good starting point for cross-referencing. The studies provided are mostly from scholarly sources (or at least sources whose credibility can be traced).

While I don't know much about the Montessori method, I do know their core philosophy is on individual learning--letting each child direct their own interests and set their own pace, and giving some structure to those choices. They haven't faced any criticism for being cultish or anti-science. I don't know much else but they might be a good method to look into if anyone wants their kids to be allowed a delayed reading schedule?

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 Post subject: Re: Smart Kids
PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 4:00 pm 
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annak wrote:
I did that! I just announced that I wasn't going to read until kindergarten and that was that. My husband was reading by 2.5 so I really hope she takes after him instead. Vi's speech is probably below average, though, so I'm not holding my breath.

FWIW, I was an extremely late talker (I had speech production issues and needed years of speech therapy), but I could read by age 2 1/2. I sometimes wonder if these things were related-- my frustration with not being able to speak well meant that I put all my energy into learning how to read.


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 Post subject: Re: Smart Kids
PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:41 pm 
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My mom pushed for me to be in Kindergarten when I was 4. Even though she's a teacher I came to school completely and totally unprepared. I was probably the kid in Livi's class who could barely write her own name and identify a color. My mom was a middle school teacher so she figured that all the stuff I needed to learn I would learn in school. She always says "by 3rd grade everyone pretty much evens out" Well, as it turns out, she was right. By the Christmas break of my first year in kindergarten I was reading, writing (I started my diary in kindergarten and to read the daily troubles of a 4 year old is pretty hilarious - i.e. I like Kevin. I hate purple. I want a dog. I need a dog. Dog. This is an actual sentence from my 4 year old diary)

I say all that to say, everyone's advice on here is great. And I couldn't really say too much more to add to it. I'm really glad I stumbled upon this thread.

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 Post subject: Re: Smart Kids
PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 8:56 pm 
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Another teacher chiming in.... I agree with what's been said above.

Also, the sad fact is that schools don't have to provide services for advanced kids. Legally they have to support the low and special ed kids, high end is hit or miss depending on the school's philosophy/resources/budget etc. Often the high kids get less attention because they just aren't the ones we are worried about. Also the danger in providing some of those "gifted" services at the early grades is that it is hard to tell which kids are just overly prepared for school due to good parents and good life experiences and which kids are truly gifted. We certainly have some kindergartners that don't know a single letter, can't even write their name, and other kids that are reading chapter books, it is amazing to see the spread. By 3rd grade or so, it levels out quite a bit. My school actually has parents that are so obsessed with their kids being in the "talent development" program, that they hire tutors and do extra work in the summer so that their kids can keep the pace. As in they are more interested in having their kid labelled as above average then actually getting the kid into the right class for the kid.

Since she is old for her grade level, you could always talk to the school about skipping a grade, if you think she could handle that academically and socially as well.

Also homework is always supposed to be a review for students and at that age, is more about helping students and parents get into a routine of doing homework-not as much about the actual skill being covered. It can easily be something done as a quick review, for her to teach you what she learned in school, and then move on to reading books or experimenting with things at a higher level.


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 Post subject: Re: Smart Kids
PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:03 pm 
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OMG, I want to read your diary as a 4 year old! It sounds too cute, and its so hard to figure out what they are thinking!

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 Post subject: Re: Smart Kids
PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 3:11 am 
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GuineaPig wrote:
I want a dog. I need a dog. Dog. This is an actual sentence from my 4 year old diary.

4 year old you and current me seem to have a lot in common!

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 Post subject: Re: Smart Kids
PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 3:53 am 
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GuineaPig wrote:
My mom pushed for me to be in Kindergarten when I was 4. Even though she's a teacher I came to school completely and totally unprepared. I was probably the kid in Livi's class who could barely write her own name and identify a color. My mom was a middle school teacher so she figured that all the stuff I needed to learn I would learn in school. She always says "by 3rd grade everyone pretty much evens out" Well, as it turns out, she was right. By the Christmas break of my first year in kindergarten I was reading, writing (I started my diary in kindergarten and to read the daily troubles of a 4 year old is pretty hilarious - i.e. I like Kevin. I hate purple. I want a dog. I need a dog. Dog. This is an actual sentence from my 4 year old diary)

I say all that to say, everyone's advice on here is great. And I couldn't really say too much more to add to it. I'm really glad I stumbled upon this thread.


I started kindergarten when I was four and didn't have any problems except for when they taught us to tie shoes. I was one of the last kids to learn.
Funny story -- At the first parent-teacher conference, the teachers told my parents I might have a learning disability.
Teachers: Carby doesn't answer to her name when we call on her in class and she still draws stick figures. Stick figures are what 4 year olds draw.
My Parents: Her name is Crabby and she *is* 4.
Teachers: OH!

I knew a kid in college who skipped either 2 or 3 grades in elementary school. I'm surprised more schools don't do that (mine didn't, but we did have a gifted program).

BTW, GP, I love your diary entry. My old diaries are a hoot. "Went to a birthday party and played hot potato. Hot potato is so stressful." My husband's old diaries are, however, exactly the same as they are now, which is kind of hilarious in its own way. Football scores, the weather, where he went if he went out.

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 Post subject: Re: Smart Kids
PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 9:49 am 
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Your diary is perfect, and it just made me realize that that would be a good thing for kiddo to do when she gets home to practice writing and spelling. I guess my thing is that she's pretty into reading so I don't feel like I need to really push that.

Also, I agree on not caring if she's gifted or not, but since she has an interest and aptitude in a variety of topics, I would guess that she probably is. Appifanie, are you still in NC? If so, education for gifted kids is actually mandated here.
http://www.ncpublicschools.org/academicservices/gifted/

The only big drawback is that each county gets to decide how to implement it, so I guess if your county isn't big on early development (Like mine doesn't seem to be) then I'm not sure what's left. I had another meeting cancelled because of the weather, and as it looks I won't be able to go again until next Friday.


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 Post subject: Re: Smart Kids
PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 11:41 pm 
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TheCrabbyCrafter wrote:
GuineaPig wrote:
My mom pushed for me to be in Kindergarten when I was 4. Even though she's a teacher I came to school completely and totally unprepared. I was probably the kid in Livi's class who could barely write her own name and identify a color. My mom was a middle school teacher so she figured that all the stuff I needed to learn I would learn in school. She always says "by 3rd grade everyone pretty much evens out" Well, as it turns out, she was right. By the Christmas break of my first year in kindergarten I was reading, writing (I started my diary in kindergarten and to read the daily troubles of a 4 year old is pretty hilarious - i.e. I like Kevin. I hate purple. I want a dog. I need a dog. Dog. This is an actual sentence from my 4 year old diary)

I say all that to say, everyone's advice on here is great. And I couldn't really say too much more to add to it. I'm really glad I stumbled upon this thread.


I started kindergarten when I was four and didn't have any problems except for when they taught us to tie shoes. I was one of the last kids to learn.
Funny story -- At the first parent-teacher conference, the teachers told my parents I might have a learning disability.
Teachers: Carby doesn't answer to her name when we call on her in class and she still draws stick figures. Stick figures are what 4 year olds draw.
My Parents: Her name is Crabby and she *is* 4.
Teachers: OH!

I knew a kid in college who skipped either 2 or 3 grades in elementary school. I'm surprised more schools don't do that (mine didn't, but we did have a gifted program).

BTW, GP, I love your diary entry. My old diaries are a hoot. "Went to a birthday party and played hot potato. Hot potato is so stressful." My husband's old diaries are, however, exactly the same as they are now, which is kind of hilarious in its own way. Football scores, the weather, where he went if he went out.


I'm 27 and stick figures are what I draw!

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 Post subject: Re: Smart Kids
PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 11:47 pm 
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Being a gifted kid was shiitake. And I definitely agree that being the best in class was not very good for my learning skills. I didn't start doing my homework until class 12/13 and then I found it really hard to do so just because I was not used to it.

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 Post subject: Re: Smart Kids
PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:19 am 
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chiveggie, thanks! that all makes sense, though i have to admit this whole equalling out by 3rd grade thing makes me cranky. if she's ahead why can't she just stay ahead? or maybe it doesn't matter. I certainly wouldn't be like *those* parents and push her to learn but she just naturally loves it. I don't know.

Also, her school is K-1 and the next one is 2-5 (2-6? I forget) so skipping would peas her off because she likes her school and doesn't want to miss time there. she also wants to hug her K teacher even when she's in 1st grade. also, the army might move us at any time, so who the hell knows.

TheCrabbyCrafter wrote:
Funny story -- At the first parent-teacher conference, the teachers told my parents I might have a learning disability.
Teachers: Carby doesn't answer to her name when we call on her in class and she still draws stick figures. Stick figures are what 4 year olds draw.
My Parents: Her name is Crabby and she *is* 4.
Teachers: OH!


That is hysterical! Something sort of like that happened to Livi but I can't remember the details now! She told them she knew something and they didn't believe her and I told them she did and they were like "oh, oops."

VeganinBerlin wrote:
Being a gifted kid was shiitake. And I definitely agree that being the best in class was not very good for my learning skills. I didn't start doing my homework until class 12/13 and then I found it really hard to do so just because I was not used to it.


this sort of just gave me an epiphany (also I'm sorry you had difficulties!) why should I advance her so she can be on par when she can just stay the smart kid in class? hmm.

cq - i'm 35 and I draw stick figures too :D livi's drawing is mostly better than mine. ha!

Livi has like four diaries. I'll go get a pic of something good! :D

bekki, i am! i will go check out that link, thanks! and yeah she loves everything. she was reading about giant jellyfish this morning (there are some the length of a blue whale - eww) and she loves math and everything. just, everything.

eta: i totally used to work for DPI! kind of.

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