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 Post subject: Re: Sweet dreams (advice/questions about kid sleep)
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:50 pm 
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Yay for the little ones sleeping better. It might be in the water (tofu?) because Charlie (almost a year) slept in his crib without waking from 7:45 PM until 7 AM. Seriously! We've been experimenting with letting him fuss a bit when he wakes in his crib. (He's been in the crib for some time because he does not sleep well in the bed with us, and lately trying to nurse him back to sleep would only make him angry.)

Monday night, he was screaming mad when I put him down for bed, but I had to let the dogs out (long story), so he was left in the crib alone for about 5/10 minutes. When I got back in, he was asleep...and slept until 5 AM. Similar story on Tuesday. Last night, he nursed to sleep and fussed for about 15 seconds around 11 PM, but didn't wake until 7 AM. The exact same thing happened when Lucy was about a year, except I left her in the crib crying to save my own sanity. Anyway, apparently my children need to cry to sleep for like 5-7 minutes one time, and then they start sleeping through the night? (I hope I didn't jinx it by saying it out loud.) Also - I don't recommend this as a strategy. I think I just have odd children. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Sweet dreams (advice/questions about kid sleep)
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:47 pm 
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Ah, today's HuffPo gives us this poor man: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/adrian-ku ... 35368.html


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 Post subject: Re: Sweet dreams (advice/questions about kid sleep)
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:53 pm 
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The link through of the story about infant loss has me crying. Holy shiitake, what a tragedy. I'm going to go and hug my kiddo for the next three days now.

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 Post subject: Re: Sweet dreams (advice/questions about kid sleep)
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 5:08 pm 
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Oh god, I read that and cried too. Just this week, Freya and I were walking through the car park on our way back to the bus (she was in the stroller). This delivery van came whipping around the corner, I pushed her away from me, waving my arms at the crasshole driver, who slammed the brakes and gave the "I'm sorry" wave and then continued on. Jesus forking Christ. But the driver in that story...I really want to know what happened to them.


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 Post subject: Re: Sweet dreams (advice/questions about kid sleep)
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2013 5:16 pm 
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Semen Strong
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God me too! I can't even imagine.

I was almost hit in the crosswalk when I was 8.5 months pregnant (I think), by a woman who was about to blow through a stop sign. I started screaming and screaming and screaming - it was like an out of body experience - and she slammed on the brakes not even a foot away from me, I could reach out and touch her fender. She flipped out and was close to crying and I just stood in the crosswalk crying and screaming at her (she didn't get out of her car, just kept saying "sorry sorry" through her closed window). A minute or two later people pulled me out of the street and she drove off.

It was an unreal experience how time slows down and also how close you can come to dying or losing your baby because some jerk can't be bothered to pay attention at the wheel. It was on a tiny one way street around schools and churches and it is literally not possible to drive really fast there, otherwise it would have ended very badly. I hope she drives better now, but I pretty much doubt it.

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 Post subject: Re: Sweet dreams (advice/questions about kid sleep)
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:28 am 
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I just *had* to say it was getting better. fork I'm tired.

One night at a time.


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 Post subject: Re: Sweet dreams (advice/questions about kid sleep)
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 2:39 pm 
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OMG, you know how I said in another thread that Beetroot is afraid of Jared, The Butcher of Song? It's had him on his best behaviour all day (except that he kept unplugging my computer and wouldn't stay in the same room with it by himself or with Raygold). Both my kids went to sleep with no fussing immediately tonight. Like, they laid down and fell asleep, just like regular folks' kids do. Unbelievable. Beetroot even read Raygold a bedtime story first. And Raygold didn't even ask for 'boobie.' It's 7:30 and both my kids are asleep! I can get so much knitting done this evening!

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 Post subject: Re: Sweet dreams (advice/questions about kid sleep)
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 11:37 pm 
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I need advice that isn't "go back to co-sleeping." Ever since we moved Malka into her own room, she's decided her bedtime is really midnight instead of 9 (already plenty late!). She gets super hyper and gets out of bed over and over again, but also cries, yells, and is generally super sad when you put her back into bed or even when you lie down with her to try to give her the idea of going to bed. It's not like she'll wake up any later in the morning, which might make a later bedtime just fine. The only way to shut down the process is to put her back in our bed, which is not a good solution (but it's what I did tonight, I'm done). I don't want her in our bed all night. Nobody but her wants her back in our bed. We sleep like crepe when she's there and we'd like to snuggle each other instead of her.

Besides laying down with her for hours (while she just uses us as a jungle gym or throws things at our heads), we've tried the "supernanny" technique of just putting her back in bed over and over and over without engaging with her at all (no eye contact, no talking). It makes her cry and even after doing it for several nights in a row, it doesn't cut down on the total length of bedtime. It's not even like there's anything we can do that would lead to her not crying for hours (except just let her back in our bed), so we're getting closer and closer to Ferberizing her, although I don't think that would work without a bed she can't escape from, so we'd have to buy another bed. And I don't want to do it anyway, because I don't think I'll be able to not comfort her, although I don't think comforting her makes things go any faster or with less stress for her anyway.

Blah. What should I do?


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 Post subject: Re: Sweet dreams (advice/questions about kid sleep)
PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2013 11:57 pm 
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Semen Strong
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I don't have advice based on my own experience but was curious. Do you think that part of the issue is that when J was away you let her back in bed? Or that she knows that if she fights hard enough you'll give in, like tonight?

I've heard that the whole process of separating them out at night can take 3 or 4 weeks and that you just need to be really consistent and firm. Some one in our LLL group has been trying the same thing and keeps bring the baby back in bed if she is sick or teething etc, and then the whole process seems to restart.

I feel like everyone I know swears by Pantley's No Cry Sleep Solution, rather than Ferber.

Hope someone else has useful advice for you!

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 Post subject: Re: Sweet dreams (advice/questions about kid sleep)
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 12:22 am 
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How old is Malka? I'm still pretty new here, so I'm still getting to know everyone and their kids.

First, I would say try an earlier bedtime. It sounds like she may be getting over tired, where her body is releasing adrenaline and she is getting wound up.

What is your current bedtime routine?

Both of my kids were not great sleepers. With DD, I used the No Cry Sleep Solution starting when she was 13 months old, finishing when she was 15 months old, and she has been an amazing sleeper ever since. She is rare though. DS is more typical. He co-slept until 15 months old, when I transitioned him to his bed, though for the first couple of months that meant me sleeping in his bed for some or all of the night.

He is now almost 3, and would still have me sleep with him every night if he could. Starting at about 2 he was able to understand things like, "I have to put the dishes in the dishwasher. I will come back and give you snuggles as soon as I am done." "I have to use the potty. I will come back and give you snuggles as soon as I am done." Basically I would invent errands and then would come back after increasingly longer times. Sometimes he would fall asleep, but I made sure to come back before often enough that he didn't feel tricked. Eventually I stopped needing to do that and could just leave.

He still sometimes wakes up upset in the middle of the night, and I just go sleep in his bed. But usually this is because he had a bad dream, so I'm willing to cut him some slack. He does know that I will only lay in his bed if he is quiet and lets me sleep though. If he wants to chat, I leave. That took some nights of me leaving every time he either sat up or started talking. There were serious tears, but he got the idea.

I don't know if any of that is useful.


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 Post subject: Re: Sweet dreams (advice/questions about kid sleep)
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 11:17 am 
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Sorry Ariann. I'm not sure I have anything helpful to say, but I can commiserate with the late bedtime issue. Babynut would not go to bed until 10 or later for months and it was hard on us.

Something that helped me was having my friend and her 14 month old come and visit us for a few days. I couldn't believe how bedtime was such a non-issue with them that I became determined to make our situation more manageable. We were spending hours each night and it was draining.

So we started the earlier bedtime even if she didn't seem tired. At 7:30, we started reading three books, nursing in the dark with the noise machine, and then putting in the crib and leaving.

It's still not perfect, and there are nights that we have to walk her down in the mei tai, but for the most part I'm spending thirty minutes with bedtime instead of hours and we are all much happier. I'm not sure if it was due to the routine or the earlier bedtime, or if she was just ready. I don't know how it would work without a crib.

When I got really frazzled with it I put a lot of the responsibility of bedtime onto my partner for awhile to take a break. I would have gone insane without help.

I hope you find something that makes sense for you guys.


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 Post subject: Re: Sweet dreams (advice/questions about kid sleep)
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 5:07 pm 
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Alright, so I guess I should read the No-Cry Sleep Solution again. When I last read it (a year ago), it didn't seem to have that many concrete ideas, but I may feel differently looking at it through the lens of a toddler-parent rather than an infant-parent.

Also, yes, we need to get more consistent. We suck SO HARD at consistency and scheduling for ourselves and it's been hard for us all along to get into a schedule for Malka. (And next week we're going on vacation in another time zone!) I did bring her into bed while my husband was away, because I just couldn't deal with the drawn-out bedtime, although it's not something I do generally, so I don't think she knows that staying up later will get her into our bed. Also, the laying down with her is really not helpful to her in settling down (because our presence excites her), and my husband and I both agree it's not helpful, then he does it anyway.

Current routine: sometimes a bath (although the bath seems counterproductive, makes her hyper), a bottle of formula (usually out of bed, trying to get away from associating the bottle with bed), turn off light, reading books, singing songs/saying prayers, then attempts at bed for 2+ hours. She shows zero signs of tiredness earlier in the day except around her nap time. We get the first eye rubbing around 9.

I don't know if an earlier bedtime would work for a couple of reasons. First, I don't think we're going to be able to tolerate her getting up earlier. We're already sleep-deprived and have failed in every attempt to set ourselves earlier. I get home late three nights a week (like 10 or later) and can't just jump into bed so I'd be able to get up at an earlier hour with her. Second, because I get home even on early days between 6-8, an earlier bedtime would mean I wouldn't see her more than half the nights of the week and I'm not sure I'm okay with that. We've tried my getting up with her in the morning so I at least have the morning with her, but I'm a wreck in the morning and that time is just not quality time. Maybe seeing her at night is something I'm going to have to sacrifice for the sake of her sleep, but that's a hard pill to swallow.

P.S. this is one of the reasons I think going to daycare would improve Malka's life. At least she'd have some structure - my husband is very loving and fun and Malka gets to explore a lot of the world with him, but he provides zero structure for her during the day, which means her naps are all over the place and that must be affecting her night time sleep as well. I don't know if there's any way to fix that problem, since my husband is not going to be anything other than who he is if my ten years of experience with him means anything.


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 Post subject: Re: Sweet dreams (advice/questions about kid sleep)
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 6:26 pm 
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Have a great vacation! You have a ton on your plate, and I could see that daycare might be a great solution. They do get a schedule and tend to nap really well and they get exhausted, which would be great for Malka. She is a very physical and social kiddo and it sounds a bit like that is what she is craving, especially as you have posted that your husband tends to not interact with her as much now that she is asserting her independence. I could see that when she comes home she really wants that social time.

In my experience, the parent who is away for most of the day becomes the one with "high value time." For example, B has been out of town and bedtimes are SO MUCH EASIER! Its crazy. I feel like when he gets home (at about 7 pm), she wants that last hour or so with him so she stays up as late as she can to spend as much as she can with him. With me, because she has me all day, at 7 she points to the stairs, we go up, brush teeth, read a book and she falls asleep. Its been in under 30 mins which is really nice.

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 Post subject: Re: Sweet dreams (advice/questions about kid sleep)
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 6:50 pm 
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Yeah, I definitely think bedtime is easier when I'm not home. I am very exciting to her.

Malka is constantly moving all day, every day, besides her nap and car rides, but it's amazing the difference between her alone with my husband or me and her with other kids. Today my BIL, SIL, and nephew came over and my nephew and Malka chased each other around like crazy. Malka was SO EXCITED and just bouncing all over the place. I can imagine how she'd eventually actually get tired if she were having that kind of interaction all day! And my nephew sleeps 6:30pm - 6am, without waking. :p


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 Post subject: Re: Sweet dreams (advice/questions about kid sleep)
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 7:03 pm 
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Ariann wrote:


I don't know if an earlier bedtime would work for a couple of reasons. First, I don't think we're going to be able to tolerate her getting up earlier. We're already sleep-deprived and have failed in every attempt to set ourselves earlier. I get home late three nights a week (like 10 or later) and can't just jump into bed so I'd be able to get up at an earlier hour with her. Second, because I get home even on early days between 6-8, an earlier bedtime would mean I wouldn't see her more than half the nights of the week and I'm not sure I'm okay with that. We've tried my getting up with her in the morning so I at least have the morning with her, but I'm a wreck in the morning and that time is just not quality time. Maybe seeing her at night is something I'm going to have to sacrifice for the sake of her sleep, but that's a hard pill to swallow.


I don't find that the earlier bedtime affects wake-up time significantly.

But not seeing her would suck. I don't see babynut one night per week and I find that heartbreaking.


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 Post subject: Re: Sweet dreams (advice/questions about kid sleep)
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 7:30 pm 
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Ariann wrote:
And my nephew sleeps 6:30pm - 6am, without waking. :p


Wow! That is amazing. I always think L is a pretty decent sleeper, but she wakes at least once a night. Do they have wisdom to share?

It would suck to not see her - but I guess the question is whether the time you now spend together works for you both? It sounds frustrating and you have described being in tears at bedtime and getting upset with her. Maybe it is worth exchanging that for some very special mommy time-ins on the weekend? It is a rough choice, but when I worked at a law firm, it seemed pretty standard for parents not to see their kids in the evening. But then again, that is why I'm not in practice any more... And our trade off is that we have incredibly expensive and shitty health insurance which sucks. I wish I had some advice on balancing work and home, but clearly I don't

I hope you have a great vacation together. You don't have to decide anything till you get back.

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 Post subject: Re: Sweet dreams (advice/questions about kid sleep)
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 10:13 pm 
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I think it's just luck for them, but they also sleep in separate rooms and he goes to daycare.


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 Post subject: Re: Sweet dreams (advice/questions about kid sleep)
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2013 10:38 pm 
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Oh yeah, and they don't nurse.

Oh my god does this child have stamina.


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 Post subject: Re: Sweet dreams (advice/questions about kid sleep)
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 12:46 am 
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If you want to try the No Cry Sleep Solution again, there is a version for toddlers. I haven't read it myself, but it might be worth looking into.

I know it's hard, but I really think a consistent bedtime routine will help. For us, the bedtime routine starts an hour before actual bedtime. After dinner, we listen to music in the living room and play quietly. Not completely quiet, since my kids are 5 and 3. But no more playing chase or hide and seek or any really active games like that. While that's not officially bedtime yet, my kids know that when they hear the music, it's time to start settling down.

As for bath, my kids get all hyped up with baths too. As odd as this sounds, we do mid-day baths. It's too hectic in the mornings, and doesn't work at night. So at some point in the afternoon my kiddos get bathed.

I get why an earlier bedtime may not be the right solution for your family. Given your schedule, I would probably try other things first, and save that as a last resort. Out of curiosity though, is bedtime any different on weekends? If she has gotten to spend all day with you, is putting her down any easier? Just wondering if she really is trying to stay up to get some extra time with mommy.


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 Post subject: Re: Sweet dreams (advice/questions about kid sleep)
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:46 am 
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One thing that helps calm my crazy kids down for bed is exercise. If they go out for a walk before bed (we got that idea from my in-laws, who used to do that to Mr Crabby) or are out grocery shopping with us in the afternoon (which takes 5+ hours because of where we live and being car-less), they go to bed a lot easier.

I used to put my kids to sleep at 8pm and then switched to 7pm because my husband was able to help at that time and they didn't get up much earlier in the morning. My SIL said that's why she puts her kids to bed so early. They get up at the same time no matter what. This might no apply to all kids, though, so don't htink I'm pushing it on you! I am hardly the sleepmaster.
Unaided, Beetroot wouldn't fall asleep until after 10pm (we used to not have bedtime and just waited for him to crash).

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 Post subject: Re: Sweet dreams (advice/questions about kid sleep)
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 7:02 am 
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Last night was B's first night back and L was so hard to get down bc she wanted to spend time with Dada. So instead of getting her to sleep at 7:30 like we had been she went down after a lot of biting and kicking and squeaking at 9:25. I basically just sat in the dark and calmly shshshshed her and ignored her antics and refused to nurse (because she was biting so hard and doing it for fun along with pulling my nipples and scratching me). Granted 9:25 isn't late, but it was so much harder than it was the nights when B was gone.

Oh and she woke up between 3 and 5:30 am. Awwwwwwwesome. Now she's out cold and I can't sleep. Today is sure to be full of win.

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 Post subject: Re: Sweet dreams (advice/questions about kid sleep)
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:51 am 
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Tofulish wrote:
Oh and she woke up between 3 and 5:30 am. Awwwwwwwesome. Now she's out cold and I can't sleep. Today is sure to be full of win.

Was there some sort of toddler signal to wake up last night? Ada was up from 3:45-6am. And Andy is away. I'm torn between letting us nap for a long time (i want to sleeeeeep) or waking her after a little bit. I know if we nap for three hours it will take me forever to get her to bed tonight.


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 Post subject: Re: Sweet dreams (advice/questions about kid sleep)
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 1:01 pm 
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How early is there any point in trying a bedtime 'routine' ?

Generally speaking, westiebaby sleeps really well overnight, but getting her to sleep in the first place is often really difficult, and tends to take from ~8 till midnight, which is pretty tiring [for me, evidently not for her!]
She's six weeks old today, so I figured there wasn't any point in trying a 'routine' because she wouldn't even be aware I was doing it, but am open to trying new things!


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 Post subject: Re: Sweet dreams (advice/questions about kid sleep)
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 5:02 pm 
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We started a routine very early on. I don't think it necessarily helped early on, mind you, but it was already in place so when my kiddos became old enough to be aware of it, it was just already there.

Bedtime routines can be very simple though. With DD, when we got close to bedtime, we would go to her room to play and keep the lights low. Play could mean reading her a book or just laying on the floor on her activity mat. It depended on her age. Then she would get pjs and her pajama song that I would sing to her, bedtime bottle, and then rock in the rocking chair to her bedtime music. Once she was asleep, I would swaddle her up, which sometimes woke her a bit again, but it only took a minute or two of rocking to get her back down.

I will say, 8 may be a little late for such an itty bitty. If bedtime is that hard, try starting earlier.


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 Post subject: Re: Sweet dreams (advice/questions about kid sleep)
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 9:53 pm 
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we also started out routine early on - even when he was really tiny - I mean tinier then 7 months where he is now - he seemed to get it that this was time for the "long nap" as we call it. We bathe him, put on his PJ's and give him his evening bottle. Then he gets to sit up for a little while on Daddy's lap in the mostly darkness until he starts to "wilt" (lays his head down and does a kind of dishrag routine that lets us know he is ready for bed!) We always then did swaddle him and put him to bed, but we are now officially swaddle free!


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