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 Post subject: Re: Man has heart attack at the Heart Attack Grill
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 2:47 pm 
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lepelaar wrote:
Does that mean I think he deserved his death or that it should the punchline of a joke? No. And I also don't think it's any of our business. Just like I think it's entirely up to someone whether or not they want to smoke cigarettes, and I don't think it's funny or deserved if they die from a smoking-related illness. It's still tragic, and worthy of our compassion, as far as I'm concerned.


I think it's entirely possible to feel that compassion and yet feel like it was a personal failing on their part that they made the choices that encouraged that ending.

If I drive like an idiot and die in a wreck, it's my fault my family is mourning. It was a stupid way to drive, and while I might escape death or injury 99 times, it's that hundredth time that actually matters.

If this guy tempted death daily by eating food that, combined with a family history of heart disease, led to an increased chance of death by heart attack, it's his fault. He did this to himself and, by extension, to his family.

I can feel bad for his family, I can feel bad that somebody is dead, but I can also simultaneously think that he was stupid and thoughtless. His family and friends are mourning because of choices he made while in full knowledge of the potential (and, in fact, very likely) consequences.

That's not a joke, it's a meditation on hubris and human failure.

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 Post subject: Re: Man has heart attack at the Heart Attack Grill
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 8:24 pm 
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solipsistnation wrote:
Vantine wrote:
When vegans get sick does that mean they earn it? That's my question.


Sure. You are personally responsible for all of your own suffering. It's all the wheel of karma, dude.

First of all, karma does not work as a quid pro quo. Second of all, this is a horribly unethical worldview given that many people die from causes far outside of their control.

Second of all, how do we know anything about this man's medical history or family history? The article. from ABC doesn't link to it. We don't know anything about him. It could have been a once in awhile splurge...

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 Post subject: Re: Man has heart attack at the Heart Attack Grill
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 8:46 pm 
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Whoa, I thought that comment was sarcasm. Is it not?


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 Post subject: Re: Man has heart attack at the Heart Attack Grill
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 8:53 pm 
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kimba wrote:
Whoa, I thought that comment was sarcasm. Is it not?


Yeah, uh, it was.

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 Post subject: Re: Man has heart attack at the Heart Attack Grill
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 8:56 pm 
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solipsistnation wrote:
Vantine wrote:
When vegans get sick does that mean they earn it? That's my question.
Sure. You are personally responsible for all of your own suffering. It's all the wheel of karma, dude.
kimba wrote:
Whoa, I thought that comment was sarcasm.
I hoped it was sarcasm, but had a sinking feeling that it wasn't.

Looks like I'll have to demonstrate how it's done.

It's so comforting to know that my mom's suffering during her final illness was (somehow) her fault; ditto my 42 year old friend who died of cancer last week, and my other friend (aged 50, and one of the most selfless people I've ever known) who passed away suddenly on Wednesday. Knowing they all had it coming because of their own actions/choices/behavior/whatever-the-f.uck-you-think-you're-in-a-position-to judge-about-complete-strangers makes what their loved ones foolishly experienced as their untimely loss make perfect sense! So thanks for that compassionate and insightful input.

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 Post subject: Re: Man has heart attack at the Heart Attack Grill
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 9:08 pm 
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solipsistnation wrote:
kimba wrote:
Whoa, I thought that comment was sarcasm. Is it not?
Yeah, uh, it was.
Interesting, since your response to Vantine came off as pretty judgy, and not particularly kind or compassionate. Or maybe a comment like, "I can feel bad for his family, I can feel bad that somebody is dead, but I can also simultaneously think that he was stupid and thoughtless" is operating at a level of sophistry beyond my limited interpretive capabilities?

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 Post subject: Re: Man has heart attack at the Heart Attack Grill
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 9:21 pm 
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Desdemona wrote:
solipsistnation wrote:
Vantine wrote:
When vegans get sick does that mean they earn it? That's my question.
Sure. You are personally responsible for all of your own suffering. It's all the wheel of karma, dude.
kimba wrote:
Whoa, I thought that comment was sarcasm.
I hoped it was sarcasm, but had a sinking feeling that it wasn't.

Looks like I'll have to demonstrate how it's done.

It's so comforting to know that my mom's suffering during her final illness was (somehow) her fault; ditto my 42 year old friend who died of cancer last week, and my other friend (aged 50, and one of the most selfless people I've ever known) who passed away suddenly on Wednesday. Knowing they all had it coming because of their own actions/choices/behavior/whatever-the-f.uck-you-think-you're-in-a-position-to judge-about-complete-strangers makes what their loved ones foolishly experienced as their untimely loss make perfect sense! So thanks for that compassionate and insightful input.


Desdemona, I'm sorry for your losses. Losing loved ones is the worst, no matter how they leave us.

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 Post subject: Re: Man has heart attack at the Heart Attack Grill
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 9:38 pm 
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Chances are good that he knew his family history and ate a crummy diet regardless (if both of those things are in fact true). Some people really do live to eat and not eat to live.

I haven't read any of the articles so I'm just wondering: do we know for sure that he ate there every day or are daily burgers just being brought up as an example?

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 Post subject: Re: Man has heart attack at the Heart Attack Grill
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 9:53 pm 
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molasses jane wrote:
Desdemona, I'm sorry for your losses. Losing loved ones is the worst, no matter how they leave us.
Thank you; it wasn't my intention to highjack this thread. I just don't see how it's helpful or productive, or kind to point fingers at people about their health (or lack thereof), much less take pleasure, however covert, in and/or pass judgment on their suffering. Maybe when I am perfect in every way (stand by, but maybe get a snack and about a million years' worth of supplies first) I'll feel like doing that, but right now that sort of thing just makes me uncomfortable and sad.

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 Post subject: Re: Man has heart attack at the Heart Attack Grill
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 10:45 pm 
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Desdemona wrote:
solipsistnation wrote:
kimba wrote:
Whoa, I thought that comment was sarcasm. Is it not?
Yeah, uh, it was.
Interesting, since your response to Vantine came off as pretty judgy, and not particularly kind or compassionate. Or maybe a comment like, "I can feel bad for his family, I can feel bad that somebody is dead, but I can also simultaneously think that he was stupid and thoughtless" is operating at a level of sophistry beyond my limited interpretive capabilities?


I don't think so.

I wrote a long response, and I've just deleted it. It turns out that I have a pretty complex personal philosophy when it comes to things like this, and to people's personal choices. I hadn't articulated it even to myself, and now I have, so thanks for the incentive to do so. It's too lengthy and chatty to really go into here, though.

Let me see if I can sum up using the example of this guy...

There is a difference between people who are forced by economic reality into depending on McDonalds to fill their bellies while leaving them able to afford rent and people who choose to avoid any number of less expensive and healthier options in favor of Heart Attack Grill burgers (henceforth to be referred to as "fatburgers.")

People who, with full awareness of their family history of heart disease and full awareness of the realities of how, you know, food works, choose to engage in behavior which is statistically likely to lead to an early heart attack or death are either living in denial or choosing to commit suicide very slowly. This is either foolish or selfish, or both.

I'm not attempting to imply anything about other situations or other families; I'm not attempting to minimize the human tragedy; I'm just observing that this was avoidable. I could make analogies-- people who choose to drive 85mph in 55 zones and pass on the right are doing the same thing; also people who choose to jaywalk, people who keep loaded guns lying around their homes, people who smoke. Statistically you can get away with it for a while, but ultimately some measurable percentage of people who engage in these behaviors meet an unfortunate but predictable end.

Add this:

You cannot simultaneously decry a society that encourages gluttony while supporting the actual gluttons. There is no shortage of information available (from ad campaigns to news stories like this one), and in the end people make their own decisions. Society is made of people; to change society you must change people. You can't change people as a whole-- people must, as individuals, be convinced to change in ways that make sense to them. Only when enough individuals have changed can society change.



TL,DR: People are complicated and make bad decisions and sometimes change.

Desdemona, I'm am very sincerely sorry for your losses, but this isn't about you or your friends. I don't know anything about them. I really don't know anything about you other than a particular dietary choice you've made. You can take it personally if you want, but you shouldn't, because it's not about you. We can swap dead-friend stories if you'd like, but I don't feel like getting into a personal-tragedy one-upmanship contest. Trust me here: It's not about you or your friends or their situations. (If you think it is, maybe you should take a closer look at why that is. Being mad at dead people is okay, you know. You can still love people and be mad at them. I don't think that's sophistry either.)

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 Post subject: Re: Man has heart attack at the Heart Attack Grill
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 10:51 pm 
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Moon wrote:
I haven't read any of the articles so I'm just wondering: do we know for sure that he ate there every day or are daily burgers just being brought up as an example?


Yeah, he not only ate there every day but hung around trying to get others to go in, AND was featured on t-shirts and stuff for the restaurant.

Quote:
A Las Vegas man who became the unofficial spokesman for downtown’s Heart Attack Grill by dint of the fact that he came to the restaurant daily will die shortly from a heart attack, the restaurant’s owner said late Friday.
(...)
Alleman loved the food.

“I told him if you keep eating like this, it’s going to kill ya,” Basso said. “He’d say, ’I just love your place, Jon.’ He’s the only person I know who was probably at the restaurant more than I; he’d be here every darned day.”


From: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/02/1 ... 68586.html

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 Post subject: Re: Man has heart attack at the Heart Attack Grill
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 10:59 pm 
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solipsistnation wrote:
Desdemona, I'm am very sincerely sorry for your losses, but this isn't about you or your friends. I don't know anything about them. I really don't know anything about you other than a particular dietary choice you've made. You can take it personally if you want, but you shouldn't, because it's not about you.
I never said it was. Please see above:
Desdemona wrote:
it wasn't my intention to highjack this thread. I just don't see how it's helpful, or productive, or kind to point fingers at people about their health (or lack thereof), much less take pleasure, however covert, in and/or pass judgment on their suffering. Maybe when I am perfect in every way (stand by, but maybe get a snack and about a million years' worth of supplies first) I'll feel like doing that, but right now that sort of thing just makes me uncomfortable and sad.
solipsistnation wrote:
We can swap dead-friend stories if you'd like, but I don't feel like getting into a personal-tragedy one-upmanship contest. Trust me here: It's not about you or your friends or their situations. (If you think it is, maybe you should take a closer look at why that is. Being mad at dead people is okay, you know. You can still love people and be mad at them.
Gee, thanks, Mr Cleaver; I never thought of it that way. And thanks for the patronizing tone; it added just the soupçon of condescension that had hitherto been lacking. C'est magnifique!

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 Post subject: Re: Man has heart attack at the Heart Attack Grill
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 11:51 pm 
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Desdemona wrote:
Gee, thanks, Mr Cleaver; I never thought of it that way. And thanks for the patronizing tone; it added just the soupçon of condescension that had hitherto been lacking. C'est magnifique!


Yeah, you know, when I posted that I was afraid that's all you'd get out of it. Maybe you'll read back later, but maybe not.

Also, when I want to be condescending rather than sincere, you'll know because I'll use condescending nicknames. I'd do so now to demonstrate, but this is sincere, as was that.

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 Post subject: Re: Man has heart attack at the Heart Attack Grill
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 4:34 am 
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Oh well. I better stop jaywalking, then.

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 Post subject: Re: Man has heart attack at the Heart Attack Grill
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 5:20 am 
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solipsistnation wrote:
lepelaar wrote:
Does that mean I think he deserved his death or that it should the punchline of a joke? No. And I also don't think it's any of our business. Just like I think it's entirely up to someone whether or not they want to smoke cigarettes, and I don't think it's funny or deserved if they die from a smoking-related illness. It's still tragic, and worthy of our compassion, as far as I'm concerned.


I think it's entirely possible to feel that compassion and yet feel like it was a personal failing on their part that they made the choices that encouraged that ending.

If I drive like an idiot and die in a wreck, it's my fault my family is mourning. It was a stupid way to drive, and while I might escape death or injury 99 times, it's that hundredth time that actually matters.

If this guy tempted death daily by eating food that, combined with a family history of heart disease, led to an increased chance of death by heart attack, it's his fault. He did this to himself and, by extension, to his family.

I can feel bad for his family, I can feel bad that somebody is dead, but I can also simultaneously think that he was stupid and thoughtless. His family and friends are mourning because of choices he made while in full knowledge of the potential (and, in fact, very likely) consequences.

That's not a joke, it's a meditation on hubris and human failure.


I just have to respond to this.

None of us makes the best choices for ourselves all of the time. Most of us knowingly do stuff that is bad for us, at least some of the time, maybe more often than is considered wise. And no one else can know/judge another person's reasons for making those choices.

My boyfriend is living with both a disease that causes him almost daily physical pain and chronic depression. He also makes choices that are incredibly unhealthy. He smokes, for example, and drinks cola by the liter (amongst other bad dietary habits). Of course he knows these are not the healthiest habits, and of course I would be happy if he decided to quit both and start eating a healthier diet. But I also know that every day for him is a struggle for survival, mentally, and a struggle to eke a little bit of physical enjoyment out of life where he can. Almost anything he eats (healthy or not) causes him a great deal of pain, and incapacitates him for the rest of the day. The refined sugar and caffeine in coke is easy/painless to digest, gives him energy and the taste makes him happy. And the smoking gives him an emotional boost. Am I worried about the long-term effects of these habits on his health? Yes. But if it keeps him from blowing his brains out today or tomorrow, I'm not going to complain.

Bottom line is, we have no way of knowing what thought process is behind anyone's choices. And as long as they're not endangering others (like someone driving recklessly) I don't think it's fair to judge them as "stupid and thoughtless".

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 Post subject: Re: Man has heart attack at the Heart Attack Grill
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 7:33 am 
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solipsistnation wrote:
Desdemona wrote:
Gee, thanks, Mr Cleaver; I never thought of it that way. And thanks for the patronizing tone; it added just the soupçon of condescension that had hitherto been lacking. C'est magnifique!


Yeah, you know, when I posted that I was afraid that's all you'd get out of it. Maybe you'll read back later, but maybe not.

Also, when I want to be condescending rather than sincere, you'll know because I'll use condescending nicknames. I'd do so now to demonstrate, but this is sincere, as was that.

You know, sometimes when you are misunderstood it's because you failed to communicate. To immediately suggest that the fault lies with the reader without considering another way to make your point is sort of putting a big neon arrow above the word condescension.

Just a thought...

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 Post subject: Re: Man has heart attack at the Heart Attack Grill
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 8:25 am 
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solipsistnation wrote:
Also, when I want to be condescending rather than sincere, you'll know because I'll use condescending nicknames.
That must make you very popular and well liked, Big Daddy
Vantine wrote:
You know, sometimes when you are misunderstood it's because you failed to communicate. To immediately suggest that the fault lies with the reader without considering another way to make your point is sort of putting a big neon arrow above the word condescension.

Just a thought...
Are you suggesting that when someone fails to communicate effectively, it could be - how might this idea be expressed? - "a personal failing on their part that they made the choices that encouraged that ending"? Because that would be really, really interesting.

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 Post subject: Re: Man has heart attack at the Heart Attack Grill
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 8:37 am 
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I'm seeing a whole lot of dickery going on in this thread, so i'm going to lock it until Mat can properly mod it.

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 Post subject: Re: Man has heart attack at the Heart Attack Grill
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 12:40 pm 
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All I can say is that I think this thread has delighted us enough and I am leaving it locked.

Mat.

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