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 Post subject: kidney stones galore
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 9:04 pm 
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my mom recently has been having really severe issues with kidney stones.
basically both of her kidney are chock full of stones.

she discovered this around the end of last year.
she has already had lithotripsy done on one kidney (blasting of kidney stones with electro shock waves) and today she sent me a text that now she has to go get the other side done.
ugh.

she has ramped up her water drinking a lot. she is generally pretty active and healthy.
she became a vegetarian probably around a year ago. though to be honest i dont think she does a lot of dairy.

she used to run/walk alot but also recently she had to have knee surgery so she hasnt been as active lately.

other than cutting out high oxalate foods like spinach and dark chocolate is there any dietary changes she should make?

any experience with tons of kidney stones and keeping them at bay? she passed a stone once before several years ago so this isnt the first bout with them.

my selfish question: IS THIS HEREDITARY!?? yikes!

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 Post subject: Re: kidney stones galore
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2013 9:39 pm 
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i thought of one other thing. could meat analogs be bad to eat in terms of kidney stones?

im not positive and would have to double check with her but i think she relies heavily on meat analogs for protein rather than say beans or lentils or tofu.

she's not the most creative cook and definitely struggles with the idea of YOU MUST EAT protein/veg/starch at every meal.

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 Post subject: Re: kidney stones galore
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 10:27 pm 
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I've had them twice. First back in '98 following several sinus infections - I started taking 500-1000mg vitamin C chewables daily (4-5 months?) a Jamieson product... I suspect that caused the first stone - and possibly not drinking enough water every day.

In 2009, following vitamin D supplements every day, 1000 iu (for 3.5 months in the winter), made by Thorne.. I had 2 kidney stones in less than 48 hours - pure hell. I was drinking quite a bit of water/herbal teas ironically, I was working in a naturopathic clinic and eating healthy. Had always stayed clear of vit C supplements since, so was very surprised about the D.

I wish your mother the best, that sounds pretty rough. My parents have no history of them.

I didn't have mine analyzed, but perhaps your mother has, her doctors can go from there once they have determined what they consist of.


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 Post subject: Re: kidney stones galore
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 10:32 pm 
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I think there can be a genetic predisposition to some types of kidney stones, but not all. And it's not a given.

My husband is the oldest of five boys. His dad has had stones. Only one of the sons has followed suit, and it's the same one who also gets dad's severely ingrown toenail. But the other 4 have never had stones.

I had one once, my doctor didn't believe me but I know I passed one as I nearly blacked out during and saw the evidence afterwards!

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 Post subject: Re: kidney stones galore
PostPosted: Sun Feb 17, 2013 11:16 pm 
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oh no! if they're calcium oxalate, she might be able to just take vitamin B6 to dissolve them (and magnesium to keep them from forming again)
i had a few stones back in 1999, and my urologist gave me a list of foods to avoid, and i said fork this (not to my urologist, but i never went back to him) did my own research, vitaminized myself, and bing! no more kidney stones. and i still get to eat chocolate and cashews and blueberries. :-) which i do en masse.

if she takes melatonin to help herself sleep, there's a[t least one] brand that also has B6. two-fer. w00t!

so for you, make sure you're eating enough magnesium. (which is the center atom in chlorophyll, so if you're eating your greens, you should be good.)

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 Post subject: Re: kidney stones galore
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 6:31 am 
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oh my god. i've been through kidney stones and she has all my sympathies.

First of all, they should be able to analyze the stone to find out what type of stone it is- that way it's narrowed down to oxalates, urates, calcium, and i can't remember the other type. I would hope that's already in the works. The last stone I had the doctor told me that at the moment of passing the stone they could do some blood test on me that would tell them some information about what kind of stone it was, but he also was trying to push me towards lithotripsy and i never went back to him [he seemed to be quackish], so i never found out about that either. maybe worth asking.

the first time i had them i didn't know what it was and i literally thought i was going to die. i finally went to the ER and they just pumped me full of fluids and waited til i peed it out, which eventually happened [this was public health so they didn't analyze the stone, of course.]. The next time it happened i knew right away what it was and i went for an ultrasound and saw multiple stones [the tech was like, look one here, here's another, but it's broken in half, you must have passed it already!" oh great.]. I had a client who was a nephrologist at the time who I called- when I told her she sighed and said "you're drinking XX brand of water, right?" which is one of those "extra calcium for women" kind of brands. Apparently it's the most common cause of kidney stones in my area. She also affirmed that there wasn't much I could do aside from seek pain relief. I knew the hospital would just give me fluids. A colleague who had been through kidney stones suggested an herb, quebra pedra, which has been demonstrated to reduce the incidence of kidney stones. Lots of links and citations here. http://www.rain-tree.com/chanca.htm#.USIPsx04vhc . So I made a shitload of tea out of this, and drank a liter every hour. I worked that day [lots of pee breaks]. By the next day the pain was gone, and when I went back for the followup ultrasound, there were no stones. I still drink a pot of QP tea every week or so just in case. I think you can find it abroad as chanca piedra or royal breakstone. i would really, really recommend it especially til you can find out what's causing the stones and avoid it.
many hugs to your mom. i wouldn't wish this on anyone.

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 Post subject: Re: kidney stones galore
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 7:26 am 
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Your poor mom! My mom had them when I was young. She would sit in the bathroom and just scream. She said it was one of the worst kinds of pain she ever experienced.

As far as the hereditary part, my sister gets them but I never have. I've gotten a handful of UTI's but never stones. I don't think my brother has had them either.

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 Post subject: Re: kidney stones galore
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 7:32 am 
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oh, i suppose i should add that my father also had them, but i really think that my calcium-heavy water consumption [and my father's own inability to drink water, ever] had a lot more to do with it.

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 Post subject: Re: kidney stones galore
PostPosted: Mon Feb 18, 2013 8:54 am 
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while talking about childbirth my mom said childbirth was absolutely nothing compared to kidney stones :-O

torque, if you're ever in a position again of having stones and being encouraged to have lithotripsy, i can assure you the procedure itself is not quackish. completely by coincidence i work for a medical company that provides lithotripsy services to hospitals including the one my mom went to. it was great because i was able to schedule our best technologist in the company to go do the procedure on my mom.
as for the urologist themselves, im sure there are plenty of quack urologists so i dont blame you for moving onward if you felt uncomfortable with the dr. here in the US though the Dr does literally almost nothing during the procedure other than stand there for liability purposes and sign off on it. the technologist runs the machine and does the procedure.
hopefully you will never need any of this info because hopefully you will never have kidney stones again!

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 Post subject: Re: kidney stones galore
PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 1:18 pm 
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i literally just saw this response today, sorry i missed it before!!!! how did your mom make out??? did they find out why she was having the stones?

and just to clarify- yes, i think the procedure is totally legit, but the doctor did not inspire any confidence whatsoever [not the doc who was going to do it, but the doc who was trying to push it on me- I got the feeling that he was reading some kind of "how to be a doctor" madlibs or something. Live and learn, right.....]

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 Post subject: Re: kidney stones galore
PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 2:54 pm 
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i would run the other way too if the dr made me feel like that!

My mom is doing good! the first procedure was rough. I think the stone was pretty big and she felt very bruised and battered the next morning and had some bleeding. I think all that is pretty normal.

However then she had to go and have the OTHER kidney done! Booooo. The other kidney was not as bad. And she pretty much felt fine the next day. she did say she passed a stone she was able to collect so they could ship it off to the lab to analyze it. im not sure what happened with that. She may not have heard back yet.

I know she’s been drinking tons of fluids and tailored her diet a bit so she’s not eating high oxalate food like spinach, chocolate, or cranberry stuff. Once they analyze the stone they will find out whether or not it’s even oxalate or what.

To be continued I guess! Hopefully no more stones and hopefully it’s not hereditary!

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 Post subject: Re: kidney stones galore
PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2013 3:55 pm 
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good news!! so glad to hear it.

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 Post subject: Re: kidney stones galore
PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 3:35 am 
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maybe that is helpful? http://foodandhealth.com/cpecourses/kidney.php

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 Post subject: Re: kidney stones galore
PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 5:38 am 
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From this article (which is quite nice, btw):
Oxalic acid can be derived from the breakdown of dietary protein as well as from high doses of vitamin C.[11]�

Vitamin C can be oxidized to oxalic acid in the human body. Large doses of vitamin C have been shown to increase oxalic acid excretion in the urine.[12] Since there is no proven benefit to taking a large amount of vitamin C supplements it seems prudent to discourage the use of such supplements in patients with a personal or even a family history of calcium oxalate kidney stones. Large doses of vitamin C can also increase the acidity of the urine and this may increase the tendency for uric acid crystals to form. Uric acid crystals can occasionally grow large enough to form kidney stones. Small uric acid crystals can also serve as a base for the formation of large calcium-rich stones.
__

My friend [a nurse] told me that he got a kidney stone after doing high-dose vitamin C for some odd reason (he's kind of a health trend kind of guy). I never understood why that could have happened til today. I will certainly never take 10000000mg of vitamin C at the onset of a cold again, that's for sure.

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 Post subject: Re: kidney stones galore
PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 7:09 am 
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I never take vitamin c because for me it seems like the easiest vitamin to get without supplements. A bit of apple juice here, a few carrots there, etc.

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 Post subject: Re: kidney stones galore
PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:48 am 
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i actually just sent that article to my mom yesterday coincidentally enough.
i think it was linked to on the Jack Norris blog?

i guess she needs to find out first what the stones are made out of.

i have no idea if she takes a vit C supplement.

my MIL is a wicked supplement/vitamin pusher and one of the things she tried to push on me once was like super high doses of vit C and i was like WHY on earth do i need large doses of vit C?!?!?!? i feel like almost everyone has vit C covered and especially vegans.

now i can be like hahahha no i dont want kidney stones so take your vit C horse pills and B12 shots and go away.

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