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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:16 pm 
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ugh. ranty. nm

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:18 am 
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Okay, this is what I posted earlier.

I think one of my pet peeves is the phrase "Being a mother is the hardest job on Earth." I hear it at work all the time, especially when we're about to deploy or just got back, I assume to placate the families. And you know what? No. No it isn't. People in your audience just put their lives at risk every day for months on end, made impossible decisions with inadequate information, displayed moral and physical courage. Not everyone every day. But enough people on enough days. And that's just one career field. How about people teaching in underfunded schools, or firefighters, or counselors, or a million other valuable and intently difficult career fields? It gets my goat, and that ain't vegan.

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:37 am 
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Invictus wrote:
Okay, this is what I posted earlier.

I think one of my pet peeves is the phrase "Being a mother is the hardest job on Earth." I hear it at work all the time, especially when we're about to deploy or just got back, I assume to placate the families. And you know what? No. No it isn't. People in your audience just put their lives at risk every day for months on end, made impossible decisions with inadequate information, displayed moral and physical courage. Not everyone every day. But enough people on enough days. And that's just one career field. How about people teaching in underfunded schools, or firefighters, or counselors, or a million other valuable and intently difficult career fields? It gets my goat, and that ain't vegan.

Totally. I work at a job that on paper looks stress-free, but I "babysit" coworkers ALL THE TIME. To the point where I go home and don't have an appetite and can't sleep and worry about them and cry. I would like if it was a baby crying. At least then I don't have to act as a psychiatrist. Which is my role at work, even though I am seriously untrained. I know that having a child is really challenging, but it's also rewarding in a way that work generally isn't. I just think we should all respect each others' choices and not put one decision up against the other.


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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:45 am 
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Oy vey. That's bad on so many levels. I'd assume that are women who aren't mothers in the audience whose goats have been gotten with that one as well. I'd feel totally demoralized after doing what you do and then hearing that.

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:53 am 
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Part of what gets me is that I think everyone in the room (or most everyone) knows it's not true, so in addition to being insulting to us, it's patronizing to the mothers. It's like a little pat on the head, you know?

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 1:05 am 
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A lot of people who say they never want kids, will probably have them. Planned and unplanned. And they will change their minds later in life.

From experience, life can be better (my true opinion) and just fine without them.


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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 1:17 am 
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My ex never wanted kids when he was with me and I just found out he is having a baby with his current gf. It really pissed me off, but I was more shocked at how upset I got about it than the fact that he is having a kid. I don't know how to explain it.


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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 1:39 am 
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I feel really lucky that none of my child-having friends say stuff like that.
Actually most of my parent-friends (my best friend and my roommate for example) seem to think it's not that big of a deal, compared to working a lot of hours every day. I mean, it's all hard work, and while it must suck having a baby that screams through the night (i bet that sucks A LOT), it's like a year or so. i've never heard any of them compare being a parent to working, but I think it might be a cultural thing, because 98% of everyone here work within the first year or so of their child being born. Stay at home parents are a HIGHLY unusual phenomenon here, so most people work 8 hours a day before they pick up their children, have dinner, hang out a little and then tug them into bed.

Actually, my best friend stayed home with her daughter until she was two, and while she seemed to love it then, now she always says "how could I DO that to myself? It was so boring! I was so bored all the time!". But back then she seemed fulfilled by it. Pregnancy hormones.. They are powerful!


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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 5:11 am 
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Invictus wrote:
Okay, this is what I posted earlier.

I think one of my pet peeves is the phrase "Being a mother is the hardest job on Earth." I hear it at work all the time, especially when we're about to deploy or just got back, I assume to placate the families. And you know what? No. No it isn't. People in your audience just put their lives at risk every day for months on end, made impossible decisions with inadequate information, displayed moral and physical courage. Not everyone every day. But enough people on enough days. And that's just one career field. How about people teaching in underfunded schools, or firefighters, or counselors, or a million other valuable and intently difficult career fields? It gets my goat, and that ain't vegan.


Oh my god somebody finally said this out loud! I have thought this to myself so many times (i worked on base for many years) but never had enough nerve to say it. It ISN'T the hardest job on Earth to be a SAHM! Not by a long shot! How can people seriously say that in front of those who just got back from deployment?! I hate the sappy Internet memes that people put on Facebook about it too.

In other news, I love this thread.

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 5:42 am 
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stellamarie wrote:
How can people seriously say that in front of those who just got back from deployment?! In other news, I love this thread.



Word.

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 6:55 am 
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vijita wrote:
Invictus wrote:
Okay, this is what I posted earlier.

I think one of my pet peeves is the phrase "Being a mother is the hardest job on Earth." I hear it at work all the time, especially when we're about to deploy or just got back, I assume to placate the families. And you know what? No. No it isn't. People in your audience just put their lives at risk every day for months on end, made impossible decisions with inadequate information, displayed moral and physical courage. Not everyone every day. But enough people on enough days. And that's just one career field. How about people teaching in underfunded schools, or firefighters, or counselors, or a million other valuable and intently difficult career fields? It gets my goat, and that ain't vegan.

Totally. I work at a job that on paper looks stress-free, but I "babysit" coworkers ALL THE TIME. To the point where I go home and don't have an appetite and can't sleep and worry about them and cry. I would like if it was a baby crying. At least then I don't have to act as a psychiatrist. Which is my role at work, even though I am seriously untrained. I know that having a child is really challenging, but it's also rewarding in a way that work generally isn't. I just think we should all respect each others' choices and not put one decision up against the other.

There is a chapter in Why Have Kids? about this, as an aside.

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 7:39 am 
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Seriously, one of the main reasons I don't want kids ever is because I like to sleep in on the weekends, I like to read a book in peace, I like to be able to not clean up or make dinner if I don't feel like it, and I like to get in and out of supermarkets and restaurants without screams.
Compared to having to deal with that, my 9-5 job is very easy indeed! But not for this less important (well ok, in the grand scheme of things, my job in the specific isn't that important, but still).
However I can most certainly say that my reasons for not wanting children are selfish, since it's all about my comfort. I just don't want to deal with all that druggery, and I can bet that for some people the druggery would trump all the joys of motherhood, and that is a perfectly valid reason not to have kids.

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:31 am 
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Yes, being a mother IS hard, but if that was what you chose to do then don't pity yourself. It isn't the hardest job on earth. Those are the kids you chose to have so deal with it.

Edited to add: my husband, who has two kids, has a hard time reprimanding his kids or punishing them. He acts so pathetic when they really need to be held accountable for something. He whines and complains that he hates feeling like he has to police them. I always just say things like "well that is what being a parent is all about, they need guidance and support and need to know their boundaries. That is your job, these are your kids. If I punish them they will only resent me, it is your job and not mine". It is true, they will resent their step parent more than their bio parent, just different relationships.


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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:52 am 
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But if it's the hardest job on earth, what does that mean for Michelle Duggar? Hardest worker evar?

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:11 am 
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Thinking about Michelle Duggar's vagina makes me sad.

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:17 am 
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well, no. because when you have that many kids, it just keeps getting easier, since you've previously birthed your own childcare assistants.

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:20 am 
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I wonder if the constant talking about being a mother is the hardest job on earth somehow comes from our culture of puritanism. In America I have noticed that many people don't feel that something is worthwhile unless it's hard work or deprivation in some way. So if you don't want to become a mother because you don't really want to deprive yourself or do a lot of hard work, you are decadent and lazy.

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Last edited by Quarantined on Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:20 am 
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la vie sale wrote:
I love how many ladies here are smart enough to never want kids.

i realize this is 3 pages back and i may regret bringing it back up, but...

this is a really shitty and judgmental thing to say.

implying the parents here (or parents in general) are stupid is not what this thread is about.

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:58 am 
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I was just thinking back to a women I know...She ran a shop that I sold my stuff at. She has 6 kids, 3 biological, 3 adopted. 2 where grown and living on their own. When I stated I was child-free she said: but whhhyyyy, you don't want a lil Friday Addams to dress up"...I said "um, it is Wednesday Addams and I don't think popping a fashion accessory out of my vaginal is appropriate"...

She is one of those "mother is the hardest job" people...She was going on and on about how hard it is to raise kids when she had a nanny, after school care and was financially secure enough not to live from paycheck to paycheck. It was a hard job for her because her kids were brats!

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 1:05 pm 
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Finally wading into the thread. I've never been a fence sitter, I've known since childhood I didn't want to birth my own kids, despite being told many times (of course) that I would change my mind. I never got too offended and I did keep my mind open to various possibilities, and waited for the clock, but now I'm nearly 45 and it never came. My reasons have mostly been outlined already by others, but a big one must be that I observed my mom getting a raw deal in life, and I never thought the sacrifices would be worth it for me.

I've been married around 7 years and my partner is possibly even more adamant than me about not having kids. Even so, neither he nor I have seriously investigated permanent birth control. We talked about it a little bit some time back, but he was resistant to surgery and I don't want to pressure him nor have surgery myself. Therefore, believe it or not, we use condoms as our sole method of birth control! Maybe it's not so rare, but it seems funny to be a middle aged married person and still using condoms. There it is.


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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 1:13 pm 
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ndpittman wrote:
Thinking about Michelle Duggar's vagina makes me sad.

Then don't think about it? This is such a weird and vulgar thing to say.

This thread's getting really shitty. Could we lay off the sad vaginas/popping out of vaginas talk? It's judgmental and misogynistic.

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 1:22 pm 
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I agree, but mostly because a lot of people (including myself) have been shamed into not posting in it. And i'm not talking about sad vaginas or whatever, and I honestly missed la vie sale's comment the first time. I'd be really sad to close the one thread about not having kids when we have a whole room dedicated to having them.

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 1:27 pm 
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eh, this is tough. I don't think la vie sale's comment was offensive, actually I really appreciated her comments and a lot of the comments in this thread and I hate to see people getting shamed into not posting. It just seems like there's a strange aura around this thread now, like people are watching it just waiting for something offensive to pop up.

esme, I do feel like bringing something up from pages ago was sort of fruitless.

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 1:40 pm 
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I don't agree with saying that people who have kids are not smart. That's not helpful and is really hurtful. But this thread illustrates, among other things, the desire to vent, in a similar way to there being a space to vent in the Playground. When people vent there about their kids, or their friends w/o kids, it's a dedicated space to express frustration. Like any other thread, there are a variety of different kinds of comments.

Maybe having this thread in the Foyer isn't helpful, as in maybe it should have its own space in a less prominent room (not sure where), as its front page status isn't helping any of this.

I posted this in the Living Room thread, and will write it here too:

"I've seen some hateful comments about this and the Foyer thread too, and I'm befuddled. I sincerely don't understand why discussing the choice to not have children, or society's dominant mother/woman mix, is so distressing to people in this community. Especially from people who preach that we should all respect one another. I'm not feeling that. And I'm confused. There is a whole room here for people to talk about the very important issues that come with being a parent. Why isn't it okay for some to talk about *not* being a parent? It's not about excluding anyone from any conversation (except, well, here, where we are framing the conversation around a book some people have read, which is in the spirit of this room), but if people w/o kids were going into Playground threads extolling the virtues of not having kids, that just wouldn't be okay. And we all seem to accept that, so why is this different and so hurtful?"

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 Post subject: Re: Women who have chosen not to have kids
PostPosted: Wed Feb 20, 2013 1:48 pm 
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molasses jane, i super agree with you. i haven't participated much because i'm very much on the fence about having kids, probably even leaning more towards having them one day. I definitely see how some of the opinions here would offend people with children, but for the most part people's posts have been about their personal reasons for not having kids, which are totally valid. they (mostly) aren't saying anything bad about people who do have kids. we don't all have to share the same opinions on things to share the boards. we can have discussions with opposing view points without having our feelings hurt at every turn. I don't even know what my point is, but I really agree with everyone who is saying that it should be ok to have a thread where people talk about the perceived negative aspects of parenthood without so many hurt feelings. I know there are a lot of parents who haven't participated in this thread because it doesn't apply to them and i think that makes the most sense.

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