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 Post subject: "The Slippery Slope of Nutritional Surveillance"
PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 7:21 am 
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A bunch of people posted this on FB, but for those who may not have seen it, she makes some excellent points.

"It used to be that vegans concerned ourselves with social justice and digging at the roots of unjust privileges. We worked at changing how society conceptualizes other animals, at getting people to finally see the unnecessary, systemic violence that is so pervasive and ingrained, it’s nearly invisible. We thought that we had a lot of work to do but it turns out that we’d been badly neglecting a whole sphere that deserved our attention: nutritional one-upmanship. No longer, though. Now it seems that so many vegans are consumed with policing each other and the world at large over carbs versus fat intake, the satanic properties of salt versus the sinister underbelly of sweeteners, that the real compelling message of compassionate living is lost in the swirling miasma of paranoia and disordered thinking."

http://veganfeministagitator.blogspot.com/2013/02/the-slippery-slope-of-nutritional.html

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 Post subject: Re: "The Slippery Slope of Nutritional Surveillance"
PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 7:34 am 
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What a fantastic article! Thanks for sharing :)

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 Post subject: Re: "The Slippery Slope of Nutritional Surveillance"
PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 9:02 am 
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Yes! I'm so glad to see this. I feel like this is a disturbing trend.

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 Post subject: Re: "The Slippery Slope of Nutritional Surveillance"
PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 9:06 am 
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i absolutely love her blog. she writes some great essays and this one is especially awesome, indeed!


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 Post subject: Re: "The Slippery Slope of Nutritional Surveillance"
PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 9:16 am 
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yeah, that was great.

Quote:
When we use the same kind of righteous indignation for potatoes or olive oil that we do for violence against animals and the planet, something has gone haywire with our priorities.

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 Post subject: Re: "The Slippery Slope of Nutritional Surveillance"
PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 11:47 am 
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POTATOES!!! WHY?!?!

There is a whole new criteria for shitty vegan now, I was a shitty vegan before but now I think I'm an ultimate shitty vegan. I eat potatoes AND olive oil.

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 Post subject: Re: "The Slippery Slope of Nutritional Surveillance"
PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:32 pm 
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linanil wrote:
I eat potatoes AND olive oil.


Together? Because if not, you should. Also with salt.

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 Post subject: Re: "The Slippery Slope of Nutritional Surveillance"
PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 1:09 pm 
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This made me think about how like, ok, I don't eat salty food because I don't like it and it's bad for me. It's bad for medical reasons and because I'm more sensitive and make it bloat. But when I pass up salty food, other people (meaning non-veggies and non vegans) think it's because I'm vegan, even though I never said that. It's a health issue and has nothing to do with veganism, but even when I explain that to non-vegans a lot tend to ignore it and just lump in into the vegan category. So like is it my fault for trying be healthy and be vegan, do I have to pick one or the other because some people choose to be morons about everything?
I'm also vegan because of all the pollution that raising animals for food creates and the devastating effects on the environment and the actions taken to provide meat, like clear cutting forests, it kind of upsets me to see veganism narrowed down to "just the animals". Not that it's not also about compassion, but when I talk to non vegans I tend to focus on the negative environmental impacts and how much food it would free up for people who do not have enough food, rather than the animals. Some people seem to be more open minded if you remove the compassion for animals aspect and point out the environmental aspects and unfair food distribution among humans. Probably because they don't care about animals but maybe do people, but whatever.


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 Post subject: Re: "The Slippery Slope of Nutritional Surveillance"
PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 3:51 pm 
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Well environment is definitely part of it but I think the real point is that vegans will tear other vegans down for various reasons and I don't think that is helpful

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 Post subject: Re: "The Slippery Slope of Nutritional Surveillance"
PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 8:04 am 
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I guess I don't know many, or maybe any, health food vegans. Is it really that big of a thing? I've met in passing or seen comments by some crazy health food vegans but I just chalked it up to them being crassholes. That's about it.

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 Post subject: Re: "The Slippery Slope of Nutritional Surveillance"
PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 8:56 am 
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Mr. Shankly wrote:
I guess I don't know many, or maybe any, health food vegans. Is it really that big of a thing? I've met in passing or seen comments by some crazy health food vegans but I just chalked it up to them being crassholes. That's about it.

I feel like it's becoming really prevalent on the internet.

In real life I have noticed it too though- anecdotally, I have one friend who used to be vegan, but now is just this crazy mixed-up amalgam of weird nutritional myths. Every time I see her she is making passive-aggressive comments about something or other about food. So yeah, she's not vegan so it doesn't exactly apply here, but she still talks about veganism a lot and sort of acts like she is sometimes. In truth maybe this is a problem not with vegans but with people who are attracted to various health-related diets for whatever reason, and this has gotten mixed up in veganism.

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 Post subject: Re: "The Slippery Slope of Nutritional Surveillance"
PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 9:22 am 
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Or there is the term that Dr Fuhrman came up with? Nutrivore or something? I don't know.

It drives me crazy on another board that has a vegetarian section and you get these Nutrivores and they start talking about eating beans and then oh they added some chicken... seriously, vegetarian doesn't mean vegetarian-like. They also have some weird view that every bite they eat has to be the highest nutrition possible! And it is a good goal to have a highly nutritious diet but eventually, you are going to drive yourself crazy.

Anyway, I started as a health food vegan type but I never thought other foods were evil. There is a group of vegans out there that do think oil is evil and sugar is evil and...

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 Post subject: Re: "The Slippery Slope of Nutritional Surveillance"
PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 9:38 am 
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solipsistnation wrote:
linanil wrote:
I eat potatoes AND olive oil.


Together? Because if not, you should. Also with salt.

Yes! Add garlic, rosemary, and black pepper, and you have one of my favorite recipes.

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 Post subject: Re: "The Slippery Slope of Nutritional Surveillance"
PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 9:44 am 
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This was a great article. Thanks for sharing!


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 Post subject: Re: "The Slippery Slope of Nutritional Surveillance"
PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 10:02 am 
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Nevermind, what I wrote wasn't very nice.

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 Post subject: Re: "The Slippery Slope of Nutritional Surveillance"
PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 10:34 am 
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Quarantined wrote:
In truth maybe this is a problem not with vegans but with people who are attracted to various health-related diets for whatever reason, and this has gotten mixed up in veganism.

Yeah, this is my thought. I dont think it's veganism but rather people attracted to crazy health claims and fad diets. I got into an argument with one of my best friends over some stupid diet she's on which doesn't allow her to eat anything really. She has to avoid all common allergens and certain other foods that fall under a certain criteria, under the philosophy that everyone is so allergic to these foods that they make us bloated and tired and if we just stop eating then we'll all be skinny and healthy. Her family is really into fad diets she's a hypocondriac (sp?).

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 Post subject: Re: "The Slippery Slope of Nutritional Surveillance"
PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:10 pm 
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Mr. Shankly wrote:
Quarantined wrote:
In truth maybe this is a problem not with vegans but with people who are attracted to various health-related diets for whatever reason, and this has gotten mixed up in veganism.

Yeah, this is my thought. I dont think it's veganism but rather people attracted to crazy health claims and fad diets.

I think it's more complicated than that, at least for the well organized no oil/fat groups. Many of the people who come to these diets and become big proponents of them were seriously ill, and the diets help them. That makes them want to share their experience with people, which often involves getting trained by a program like the one at Cornell which does a great job of teaching them the tenants of this diet, but not a good job at teaching how to read research and place it in context. They then have both passion and just enough education to sound like an expert.

I think the problem goes beyond any villainizing specific vegan foods and extends to villainizing nonvegan diets. Every day I see someone boasting about their vegan diet meaning they'll never get cancer/diabetes/heart disease. And it's a punch in the gut every time. Health is complex and can't be solved with any one diet. And arrogance about someone else's ill health is ugly and delusional.

ETA I also think the problem reflects oversimplification in health reporting and the very human difficulty of translating actual risk into perceived risk.


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 Post subject: Re: "The Slippery Slope of Nutritional Surveillance"
PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:25 pm 
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Sing it, mollyjade.

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 Post subject: Re: "The Slippery Slope of Nutritional Surveillance"
PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:41 pm 
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Quarantined wrote:
In truth maybe this is a problem not with vegans but with people who are attracted to various health-related diets for whatever reason, and this has gotten mixed up in veganism.


yes... it's kind of too bad in this way that veganism also happens to include changes in diet simply as a byproduct of the main goal of trying to protect and respect animals. (i hope that comes across right and no one thinks i'm stating a goal/trying to be a spokesperson for all of vegandom)

if veganism was just not wearing leather and not going to the circus and hugging animals (if they wanted hugs)... then it wouldnt get all confused with this "be the skinniest/healthiest/longest living/avoid allergens/don't eat certain categories of things" stuff.


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 Post subject: Re: "The Slippery Slope of Nutritional Surveillance"
PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:53 pm 
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erynne936 wrote:
Quarantined wrote:
In truth maybe this is a problem not with vegans but with people who are attracted to various health-related diets for whatever reason, and this has gotten mixed up in veganism.


yes... it's kind of too bad in this way that veganism also happens to include changes in diet simply as a byproduct of the main goal of trying to protect and respect animals. (i hope that comes across right and no one thinks i'm stating a goal/trying to be a spokesperson for all of vegandom)

if veganism was just not wearing leather and not going to the circus and hugging animals (if they wanted hugs)... then it wouldnt get all confused with this "be the skinniest/healthiest/longest living/avoid allergens/don't eat certain categories of things" stuff.

Yes. I find it problematic because I don't want to position myself as being anti-health or excluding people from veganism just because they are into healthy eating. I just regret that such a health agenda has become associated with it because as mollyjade points out above, there is so much misinformation being thrown around. I feel like focus has shifted from the very real and good reasons to be vegan that have nothing to do with health.

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 Post subject: Re: "The Slippery Slope of Nutritional Surveillance"
PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:58 pm 
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mollyjade wrote:
ETA I also think the problem reflects oversimplification in health reporting and the very human difficulty of translating actual risk into perceived risk.

Definitely, I notice this with all kinds of issues.

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 Post subject: Re: "The Slippery Slope of Nutritional Surveillance"
PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 11:57 am 
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mollyjade wrote:
I think the problem goes beyond any villainizing specific vegan foods and extends to villainizing nonvegan diets. Every day I see someone boasting about their vegan diet meaning they'll never get cancer/diabetes/heart disease. And it's a punch in the gut every time. Health is complex and can't be solved with any one diet. And arrogance about someone else's ill health is ugly and delusional.
Yes, yes, a thousand times YES!!!!

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 Post subject: Re: "The Slippery Slope of Nutritional Surveillance"
PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 2:18 pm 
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Ginny Messina responded to this blog post as well. I especially like this part:

Quote:
...guidance toward dietary choices that reduce chronic disease risk is an important part of advocacy. But a message that veers into fear and fear-mongering about food choices isn’t.


http://www.theveganrd.com/2013/03/being ... vegan.html


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 Post subject: Re: "The Slippery Slope of Nutritional Surveillance"
PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 4:42 pm 
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i love this blog post and want to kiss and hug it.

to me veganism is an ethical/moral practice of how you live your life and not a "diet"

if people want to do the no/low oil thing or feel better when they dont eat gluten then that's totally cool.
im not here to tell people how/what to eat but it's muddling the meaning of veganism and confusing non-vegans when they get so intertwined.

i actually was surprised that Ginny gets enough bad comments on her blog about not condemning oil that she feels the need to like make a blog post about it.
i mean, she's a nutritionist damn it!

i mean if people come to veganism from a health perspective rather than an ethical perspective then that's cool. that's still animals being helped but overall i get frustrated when veganism becomes about what you're eating/not eating rather than what you believe in.

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 Post subject: Re: "The Slippery Slope of Nutritional Surveillance"
PostPosted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 5:11 pm 
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Health food vegan though doesn't equate with no oil, no sugar, no whatever. I think that seems to be a newer trend.

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