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 Post subject: Re: severe arm soreness after flu shot... for 2 WEEKS!
PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 4:44 pm 
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sarahnorine wrote:
" But if somebody is spreading misinformation (like how avoiding eggs as a vegan can lead to an egg allergy which would make somebody have a bad response to the flu vaccine), I am going to respond to that. "

We're going to have to agree to disagree on that one. It's not "spreading misinformation", but I have a feeling you're going to keep calling it that. I'm out with the others on this one! This is silly.


Ergo you have no proof to back up your claims so you're legging it.

I've only just skimmed the creationist thread Chipmunk, fun times!

I have to thank you again for all the flu vaccine info you gave on the old boards, it helped me decide to get it and so far I haven't had any problems. In fact, my ME symptoms (& sinus symptoms!) seem to ease up for about 10 days after the shots, it does make me wonder again if my ME is connected to an over active immune system.


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 Post subject: Re: severe arm soreness after flu shot... for 2 WEEKS!
PostPosted: Tue Nov 23, 2010 7:45 pm 
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Chipmunk wrote:
There's a much simpler possible explanation for that. Your immune system's response to the vaccine, i.e. the very thing it was supposed to elicit (fever is a well documented side effect, see e.g. http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2334/10/71). So, unless you have a credible source explaining why people who don't eat eggs should have a particularly severe reaction to it, I'm going to agree with the people who saw this as spreading misinformation about a matter of public health.

Whoops. I'm a little late on the reply to this but...like, I said before, my primary doctor was the one that informed me that it had egg protein in it and that I may have an had an especially adverse reaction to it because of the egg. So it really depends on what you all deem a "credible source". I was NOT spreading misinformation, as I trusted that it's not misinformation seeing as I've seen this doctor most of my life, trust her, she's a doctor, etc. I NEVER EVER said that it's EXACTLY what makes vegans like me super sick, ever in this post, but that it CAN possibly because I-not others-I got sick from it.I also took what my doctor said to heart to be able to regurgitate it here. I thought it might be helpful to post a little blurb about what it contains so others could be aware (the link). I didn't mean for it to come off as it being the sole reason vegans can get sick from it, because I am well aware the shot itself can make a person sick, regardless of the egg protein that may in fact be in the shot. My mom gets sick from it every year and she's not vegan, of course not to the extent that I did, but still becomes ill. If this information was not so hidden, then that's great. I'm glad people know this stuff because I went into my flu shot the year after going vegan and was pleasantly surprised by it. Unfortunately, it was for my music therapy practice at a hospital, where it was required to be taken so I could treat the patients. I never doubted what anyone said in here was true, but your reaction-"spreading it is grosser", is what took me back. Like I said, I didn't think we were headed to the debate of whether or not it was a right or wrong issue.
And I disagree yet again, respectfully of course, because I get the feeling this is getting heated, with you saying that I'm spreading "false information" when I am not. So I am going to stand my ground on this one.
I guess to be fair as well, I'd invite you to prove that it was not the eggs that made me sick, but please don't tell me I'm spreading false information when I am not.

Here's another source:
http://stayingvegan.com/2010/11/should- ... -flu-shot/
It doesn't say anything about the egg making vegans sick, but it does describe a lot of the process of making a flu shot which is kind of disturbing in my opinion.

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 Post subject: Re: severe arm soreness after flu shot... for 2 WEEKS!
PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 12:04 am 
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Huh?

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 Post subject: Re: severe arm soreness after flu shot... for 2 WEEKS!
PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 5:19 am 
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Aki wrote:
Huh?


Heh.
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 Post subject: Re: severe arm soreness after flu shot... for 2 WEEKS!
PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 5:44 am 
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Unless there's actually any data that vegans have more adverse reactions than the general population what may or may not have happened to a single person (who also happens to be related to someone who regularly experiences side effects) really isn't informative. I'm not allowed to go around injecting people with egg protein or pretending to do so, so there goes that experiment. Not that it would get funded anyway.

As an aside, people with egg allergies can safely be vaccinated with vaccine grown in eggs.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20943012
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21055666

In this study, there were no significant differences in terms of side effects between controls and egg-allergic individuals.
http://www.jacionline.org/article/S0091 ... 8/abstract


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 Post subject: Re: severe arm soreness after flu shot... for 2 WEEKS!
PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 7:53 am 
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Chipmunk wrote:
Unless there's actually any data that vegans have more adverse reactions than the general population what may or may not have happened to a single person (who also happens to be related to someone who regularly experiences side effects) really isn't informative. I'm not allowed to go around injecting people with egg protein or pretending to do so, so there goes that experiment. Not that it would get funded anyway.

As an aside, people with egg allergies can safely be vaccinated with vaccine grown in eggs.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20943012
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21055666

In this study, there were no significant differences in terms of side effects between controls and egg-allergic individuals.
http://www.jacionline.org/article/S0091 ... 8/abstract


I can ask my doctor, as she seemed to be pretty knowledgeable about it. She treats many people and mentioned another vegan that was having significant trouble with the adverse reactions to the shot, was almost hospitalized.

Do any of you have egg allergies? And if so, what kind of reactions have you noticed? I know someone said they did here...

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 Post subject: Re: severe arm soreness after flu shot... for 2 WEEKS!
PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 7:55 am 
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Aki wrote:
Huh?

Huh what? I'll gladly explain it to you if you don't understand.

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 Post subject: Re: severe arm soreness after flu shot... for 2 WEEKS!
PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 8:04 am 
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sarahnorine wrote:
Chipmunk wrote:
Unless there's actually any data that vegans have more adverse reactions than the general population what may or may not have happened to a single person (who also happens to be related to someone who regularly experiences side effects) really isn't informative. I'm not allowed to go around injecting people with egg protein or pretending to do so, so there goes that experiment. Not that it would get funded anyway.

As an aside, people with egg allergies can safely be vaccinated with vaccine grown in eggs.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20943012
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21055666

In this study, there were no significant differences in terms of side effects between controls and egg-allergic individuals.
http://www.jacionline.org/article/S0091 ... 8/abstract


I can ask my doctor, as she seemed to be pretty knowledgeable about it. She treats many people and mentioned another vegan that was having significant trouble with the adverse reactions to the shot, was hospitalized.

Also this "In this study, there were no significant differences in terms of side effects between controls and egg-allergic individuals. http://www.jacionline.org/article/S0091 ... 8/abstract" is really interesting, because I just googled this at my school library's database and I received a search of 11 studies to the contrary, a couple of old ones but most done in 2009.

Do any of you have egg allergies? And if so, what kind of reactions have you noticed? I know someone said they did here...

You guys are keeping me on my toes, yeesh.

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 Post subject: Re: severe arm soreness after flu shot... for 2 WEEKS!
PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 9:18 am 
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sarahnorine wrote:
Ohhh you guys. I hope you know that the flu shot can make vegans especially sick. It can have eggs in it. I wondered why my insides felt like such crepe afterward (and for DAYS). I found it had eggs in it a couple of days after it happened. Ugh.

Here's a link to some info about it:
http://www.acaai.org/allergist/allergies/Types/drug-allergy/Pages/flu-shots-egg-allergy.aspx


I'm still waiting for you to establish, in any way other than "my doctor said it to me", that the flu shot can make vegans "especially sick." (your words!) Your request that somebody prove that it wasn't the eggs that made you sick is blatantly unscientific given that negative reactions to the flu vaccine that don't have anything to do with eggs but with the immune response to the vaccine.

I think the response to your comments, which you have have meant as a throwaway, has caught you off-guard. If I'm responding strongly, it is because the flu kills people and unvaccinated populations create the conditions in which a flu epidemic can thrive. If somebody doesn't want to get the flu shot because it isn't consistent with their veganism, that is one thing. But it is another thing for somebody to be making claims that the flu shot will make you sick because you're vegan. Whether you meant to do it or not, your comments came across as discouraging vegans from getting vaccinated due to health reasons. If somebody wants to look at documented and real health concerns and decide on that basis that it isn't for them, that is their decision. But I can't understand why you are so defensive about a claim that you can't back up other than "my doctor said."

Doctors can be really smart and knowledgeable people. Or they can be totally uninformed (a doctor told me once that there were no non-meat sources of iron. My sister was told it was "impossible" to be getting migraines from the pill -- migranes that stopped forever two weeks after she went off the pill). Nobody should make any decisions about their vaccinations due to something said by the doctor of somebody on a message board.

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 Post subject: Re: severe arm soreness after flu shot... for 2 WEEKS!
PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 9:34 am 
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janejellyroll wrote:
I'm still waiting for you to establish, in any way other than "my doctor said it to me", that the flu shot can make vegans "especially sick." (your words!) Your request that somebody prove that it wasn't the eggs that made you sick is blatantly unscientific given that negative reactions to the flu vaccine that don't have anything to do with eggs but with the immune response to the vaccine.

I think the response to your comments, which you have have meant as a throwaway, has caught you off-guard. If I'm responding strongly, it is because the flu kills people and unvaccinated populations create the conditions in which a flu epidemic can thrive. If somebody doesn't want to get the flu shot because it isn't consistent with their veganism, that is one thing. But it is another thing for somebody to be making claims that the flu shot will make you sick because you're vegan. Whether you meant to do it or not, your comments came across as discouraging vegans from getting vaccinated due to health reasons. If somebody wants to look at documented and real health concerns and decide on that basis that it isn't for them, that is their decision. But I can't understand why you are so defensive about a claim that you can't back up other than "my doctor said."

Doctors can be really smart and knowledgeable people. Or they can be totally uninformed (a doctor told me once that there were no non-meat sources of iron. My sister was told it was "impossible" to be getting migraines from the pill -- migranes that stopped forever two weeks after she went off the pill). Nobody should make any decisions about their vaccinations due to something said by the doctor of somebody on a message board.


This. My gp is a partner in the practice, vegetarian, told me I could get VitD from nuts & that it's very hard to be VitD deficient. We live in a part of the world that gets very little sunlight. Doctors don't always get it right, even good ones.

Two vegans having a reaction doesn't prove anything, I know of lots of omnivores who have bad reactions to the shots.

Seriously Sarah, if you want anyone to take you seriously you're going to have to provide more than "my doctor says". Many of the vegans on the PPK get flu shots yearly and I've never noticed a rash of threads in the health boards complaining of bad reactions.


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 Post subject: Re: severe arm soreness after flu shot... for 2 WEEKS!
PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 10:45 am 
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fezza wrote:
janejellyroll wrote:
I'm still waiting for you to establish, in any way other than "my doctor said it to me", that the flu shot can make vegans "especially sick." (your words!) Your request that somebody prove that it wasn't the eggs that made you sick is blatantly unscientific given that negative reactions to the flu vaccine that don't have anything to do with eggs but with the immune response to the vaccine.

I think the response to your comments, which you have have meant as a throwaway, has caught you off-guard. If I'm responding strongly, it is because the flu kills people and unvaccinated populations create the conditions in which a flu epidemic can thrive. If somebody doesn't want to get the flu shot because it isn't consistent with their veganism, that is one thing. But it is another thing for somebody to be making claims that the flu shot will make you sick because you're vegan. Whether you meant to do it or not, your comments came across as discouraging vegans from getting vaccinated due to health reasons. If somebody wants to look at documented and real health concerns and decide on that basis that it isn't for them, that is their decision. But I can't understand why you are so defensive about a claim that you can't back up other than "my doctor said."

Doctors can be really smart and knowledgeable people. Or they can be totally uninformed (a doctor told me once that there were no non-meat sources of iron. My sister was told it was "impossible" to be getting migraines from the pill -- migranes that stopped forever two weeks after she went off the pill). Nobody should make any decisions about their vaccinations due to something said by the doctor of somebody on a message board.


This. My gp is a partner in the practice, vegetarian, told me I could get VitD from nuts & that it's very hard to be VitD deficient. We live in a part of the world that gets very little sunlight. Doctors don't always get it right, even good ones.

Two vegans having a reaction doesn't prove anything, I know of lots of omnivores who have bad reactions to the shots.

Seriously Sarah, if you want anyone to take you seriously you're going to have to provide more than "my doctor says". Many of the vegans on the PPK get flu shots yearly and I've never noticed a rash of threads in the health boards complaining of bad reactions.

You have made this abundantly clear. And I will follow up with my doctor on this!

I was EXTREMELY caught off-guard, but I was not, in any way, trying to spread false information. That would be my last intent.

"I'm still waiting for you to establish, in any way other than "my doctor said it to me", that the flu shot can make vegans "especially sick." (your words!) "
Just to clarify, it was my doctor's words that I was reiterating. But I will, like I said, follow up on this when I see her again for sure!

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 Post subject: Re: severe arm soreness after flu shot... for 2 WEEKS!
PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 10:50 am 
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"But I can't understand why you are so defensive about a claim that you can't back up other than "my doctor said."
I was defensive because of the claim that I was spreading false information which, in my opinion, I was not.

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 Post subject: Re: severe arm soreness after flu shot... for 2 WEEKS!
PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 11:04 am 
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sarahnorine wrote:
"I'm still waiting for you to establish, in any way other than "my doctor said it to me", that the flu shot can make vegans "especially sick." (your words!) "
Just to clarify, it was my doctor's words that I was reiterating. But I will, like I said, follow up on this when I see her again for sure!


But, are you understanding that people take issue with you stating your doctor's opinion as fact? That's why people are calling it misinformation. It's not a statement made based off studies or statistics, it's based on the opinion of a single individual.

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 Post subject: Re: severe arm soreness after flu shot... for 2 WEEKS!
PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 11:27 am 
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sarahnorine wrote:
"But I can't understand why you are so defensive about a claim that you can't back up other than "my doctor said."
I was defensive because of the claim that I was spreading false information which, in my opinion, I was not.


Even good intentions can't make something false become true. There was no moral judgment behind saying that your statement was "misinformation." I don't think you can "un-misinformation" something by saying it is your opinion that it is not misinformation. Most people who are saying false things think they are, in fact, true (disclaimer: this probably doesn't hold true for anybody you see on Fox News).

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 Post subject: Re: severe arm soreness after flu shot... for 2 WEEKS!
PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:19 pm 
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ismloveyoubobbybrown wrote:
sarahnorine wrote:
"I'm still waiting for you to establish, in any way other than "my doctor said it to me", that the flu shot can make vegans "especially sick." (your words!) "
Just to clarify, it was my doctor's words that I was reiterating. But I will, like I said, follow up on this when I see her again for sure!


But, are you understanding that people take issue with you stating your doctor's opinion as fact? That's why people are calling it misinformation. It's not a statement made based off studies or statistics, it's based on the opinion of a single individual.

Yes I understand this now and I realize it wasn't enough to back up what I said in your eyes. I took what she said as the truth, as you know.

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 Post subject: Re: severe arm soreness after flu shot... for 2 WEEKS!
PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:33 pm 
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janejellyroll wrote:
sarahnorine wrote:
"But I can't understand why you are so defensive about a claim that you can't back up other than "my doctor said."
I was defensive because of the claim that I was spreading false information which, in my opinion, I was not.


Even good intentions can't make something false become true. There was no moral judgment behind saying that your statement was "misinformation." I don't think you can "un-misinformation" something by saying it is your opinion that it is not misinformation. Most people who are saying false things think they are, in fact, true (disclaimer: this probably doesn't hold true for anybody you see on Fox News).

I see your point, but the way it came across it did seem like judgment. If it indeed is misinformation under the qualifier that was not backed up by scientific research, etc. then I can't deny that it wasn't obviously. I wasn't purposefully trying to mislead people into thinking that the flu shot is a bad thing to get at all. I wanted to let people know what's in the vaccine and again, if it's not hidden, great! It was not known by me, which ended up being a real bummer in the end.

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 Post subject: Re: severe arm soreness after flu shot... for 2 WEEKS!
PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:47 pm 
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fezza wrote:
Aki wrote:
Huh?


Heh.
Image


I want to sig this.


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 Post subject: Re: severe arm soreness after flu shot... for 2 WEEKS!
PostPosted: Wed Nov 24, 2010 2:02 pm 
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sarahnorine wrote:
Aki wrote:
Huh?

Huh what? I'll gladly explain it to you if you don't understand.


Please don't.

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