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 Post subject: Re: Go the Fork to Sleep
PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 4:31 pm 
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mittenmacher wrote:
We have trash bags taped over the windows (poorman's blackout curtains), but I don't know if they help or hurt, because how is he supposed to tell when it's morning and okay to nurse?


Maybe you need a dawn simulator alarm clock light thingy. I think they are generally expensive, but I think there are some cheaper ones out there too.


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 Post subject: Re: Go the Fork to Sleep
PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2012 7:08 pm 
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mittenmacher wrote:
We have trash bags taped over the windows (poorman's blackout curtains), but I don't know if they help or hurt, because how is he supposed to tell when it's morning and okay to nurse?


We got a $30 programmable clock that has a sleeping cow when it's bedtime, and an awake cow that lights up when it's time to wake. It was worked wonders for us since Lucy moved from a crib to a day bed from which she can escape.
http://amzn.com/B001YJ6VCM

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 Post subject: Re: Go the Fork to Sleep
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 2:05 am 
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mittenmacher wrote:
until the crack of dawn, when he wakes fully up and begs to nurse (points to his own nipples and whines "Nuuuuur? Puh-lee? Leeee, mama, leeheeheeeeee!").

That is the cutest thing ever!
Raygold is 2-1/4 and only started sleeping through the night 2-3 weeks ago. I'm still co-sleeping. At one point, he was down to just one feed a night and it got later and later (in the morning), so I tried to discourage it by giving him a sippie with water and compromised by letting him "hoooold tha boobies." This resulted in a horrible morning tittie twister, but only twice. Now he only nurses once -- at night to get him to sleep (still the only way).

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 Post subject: Re: Go the Fork to Sleep
PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 6:58 am 
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Grey slept in his room until 1:30, each night it has gotten later, hooray! Tonight we are going cabining so he will sleep with us.


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 Post subject: Re: Go the Fork to Sleep
PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 1:30 pm 
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Okay so I need to give the rundown of our current sleep situation. I need help. We night weaned Lorelei and she has started sleeping through the night in her own bed. She either wakes up once, or not at all. Between around 7 pm and somewhere between 4-6 am. (4 am mornings are the worst). However, it is great otherwise. She is 20 months old now.

But NAPS... oh the naps... I was using the jogging stroller for a while in the afternoon and letting her nap in it, and it was great for a while. But it started taking longer and longer to get her to go to sleep or it wouldn't happen at all. Even for very long walks. I used the Ergo to take her around sometimes, and that worked great too... MOST of the time. But I really need her to learn to sleep in her bed for naps because it is a huge inconvenience to have to take her on a walk or baby wear for her nap at this age. I feel like we were doing more harm than good.

So we decided to really be diligent about putting her in her bed for naptime and we are trying to stay strong. She's always been troublesome during naptime. Every care provider we ever had has had trouble with it and it is the reason we were relying on the stroller or Ergo as a crutch. I feel like we are letting her down by not teaching her to sleep in her bed for naps but I am at wits end. I can't get her to stay in her bed no matter how many times I go in her room and put her back in the bed.

She will not lay down when I tell her to lay down. She can cry and cry and cry. I try reasoning with her. I try singing to her. She has her blanket, she has her panda. She just goes to the door and cries, over and over and over again. I go in, I put her back in her bed. I tell her, "it's nap time" "It's sleep time" "time for bed" "go to sleep" "lay down" "go back to your bed"... etc etc. I tried staying next to her bed. I tried demonstrating. I tried putting her in bed telling her night night and leaving.

I have tried letting her cry for a bit before going back in but it doesn't seem to matter how long I wait, the result is always the same. She is so resistant to taking naps. But she is at an age where she comprehends what I am telling her. She knows "pillow, bed, sleep, lay down, close your eyes", all that stuff.

I also feel that my husband demands her obedience more readily. He has more success than I in putting her down for a nap.


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 Post subject: Re: Go the Fork to Sleep
PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:06 pm 
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DS, we're in about the same boat as you. I've gotten V to be pretty good at doing bedtime routine around 7-8pm, and most days she sleeps until 6:30 or so lately, today she woke up at ~4 to nurse nonstop until I finally gave up and woke up and had a rough morning. Ugh. She's napping in the stroller now. So far I have had NO success getting her to stay in bed and nap there, unless she is tired enough to fall asleep nursing or something and I transfer her. Or the extreeeeeeemely rare successful car transfer. I'm not super strict about routine, though. My husband's deployed now so I've had to make the evenings work, and I just don't have that motivation for morning nap.


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 Post subject: Re: Go the Fork to Sleep
PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:40 pm 
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I just spent 3 hours of my day unsuccessfully trying to get Lorelei to take her afternoon nap. It's days like this when I feel exasperated and drained. I could have been cleaning, or reading, or working on schoolwork. But I spent 3 hours doing something that had no reward. It used to be a lot easier when we had our afternoon nursing session. I cut that out of our routine months ago and the afternoon stroller jog/walk was my way of transitioning from that nursing session. Now, she is used to not nursing in the afternoon but I am lost without it.


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 Post subject: Re: Go the Fork to Sleep
PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:59 pm 
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A friend of mine suggested just making nap time quiet time. After lunch, I take L into a bedroom and just am very low energy. I don't really interact with her, except to keep her safe, but I let her read or play etc. She doesn't have to go into the bed, but inevitably eventually she wants to. We do nurse to sleep, but that way she gets a nice little nap (90mins min).

Before that I was carrying her in my KP to get her to fall asleep with way more effort than I want to expend.

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 Post subject: Re: Go the Fork to Sleep
PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 3:05 pm 
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We also pretend to sleep sometimes at times other than nap or bedtime so grey really likes to nap now, it is part of the fun.


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 Post subject: Re: Go the Fork to Sleep
PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 3:08 pm 
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We are in the same boat and Malka is also 20 months. Two things work consistently for us (this is true of bedtime as well): a) waiting until she is literally falling on the ground from a tired-tantrum, then putting her in bed and sitting for awhile with her - she will cry, but she's tired and angsty enough that she won't get up and will eventually go to sleep or b) basically holding her down and snuggle-smothering her; my husband is big enough that he just needs to position his arms in a certain way around her and make a baby cage without actually holding her and she gets the message, I have to actually hold her down in a tight cuddle - this method also involves crying, but works really fast because she does actually want to sleep, she just needs to not have the option of getting up. We still can't leave the room if she's not really asleep, though, she'll wake up and come to the door. I wish we could get past this, just tell her to lay down and leave the room, but at least we now have a pretty solid method that always works to get her to sleep. She's been sleeping in a bed, either ours or hers, for naps since birth, so we really have no excuse for not having figured this out yet.

We had the tired-tantrum today, she went to sleep in less than three minutes once we put her in bed, and she's still asleep two hours later.


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 Post subject: Re: Go the Fork to Sleep
PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 3:38 pm 
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It is so hit or miss with us. We have the problem with keeping her lying down too so we kind of have to keep her legs still or she will just sit up in the bed the entire time screaming. I think I might be leaning in the quiet time direction. I think there needs to be a more consistent routine in our house during the afternoon.

After the first couple of hours of her screaming this afternoon and the jog, and putting her back in her bed over and over again, I picked her up and held her and she fell asleep in my arms in minutes. But, she kept waking up and crying when I tried to lay her down. I felt like I was dealing with a newborn all over again. I took her to my bed to lay down with her and see if she would get the idea. She never did.

She's pretty happy today though, she's not crabby (yet) and it is helping a lot.


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 Post subject: Re: Go the Fork to Sleep
PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 4:01 pm 
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Our sleep routine was all over the place before we went to this schedule. Lunch between 12 and 1, quiet time from 1 or 2 to about 4 or 5. When JENNA mentioned that somewhere, I didn't think it could happen to us, but it did!

It is nice to get L down before the tired tantrums hit, because I just find it so hard to deal with an overtired toddler. Now at 1ish, she is clearly tired and goes down without a fight, but we have become those annoying people who can't do anything near 1pm because it interferes with naptimes, which is a shame because I do miss the flexibility, but I don't miss having to work so hard to get her to nap.

And I worry that now I've jinxed myself hahaha. You know, the minute you have it figured out it all changes!

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 Post subject: Re: Go the Fork to Sleep
PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 1:56 am 
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Ooh, I like the quiet time idea! None of my kids were nappers (Raygold napped 1/2-1 hour a day until he was maybe a year old and Beety never napped at all), so if #3 is also not a napper, I think quiet time would still be nice for me.

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 Post subject: Re: Go the Fork to Sleep
PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 7:52 am 
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This is absolutely hilarious: http://starcrossedkayla.tumblr.com/post ... p-books-on

Quote:
Ava Neyer read stacks of books about baby sleep. But nothing seemed to work for her twins, now 5 months, one a night owl and one an early bird. Every new expert offered a different solution -- and what's worse, they all seemed to contradict each other. Posted on a friend's Tumblr, Neyer's essay went viral on Reddit and has been making waves in the mom-blog world.

"I didn't expect people to like it as much as they did!" said Neyer, 31, who lives in Fort Bragg, N.C. She's still struggling with sleep issues, but her experience has taught her to take all advice with a grain of salt. "A lot of it is learning to read your children," Neyer said, rather than reading books.

Neyer's brilliant take on expert sleep advice:

"You shouldn’t sleep train at all, before a year, before 6 months, or before 4 months, but if you wait too late, your baby will never be able to sleep without you. College-aged children never need to be nursed, rocked, helped to sleep, so don’t worry about any bad habits. Nursing, rocking, singing, swaddling, etc to sleep are all bad habits and should be stopped immediately.

Naps should only be taken in the bed, never in a swing, car seat, stroller, or when worn. Letting them sleep in the car seat or swing will damage their skulls. If your baby has trouble falling asleep in the bed, put them in a swing, car seat, stroller, or wear them. Use the crib only for sleep and keep it free of distractions. If the baby is having trouble adjusting to the crib, have them play in it first. If the baby wakes up at night and wants to play, put fun toys in the crib to distract them.

Put the baby in a nursery, bed in your room, in your bed. Co-sleeping is the best way to get sleep, except that it can kill your baby, so never, ever do it. If your baby doesn't die, you will need to bed-share until college.

Keep the room warm, but not too warm. Swaddle the baby tightly, but not too tightly. Put them on their backs to sleep, but don't let them be on their backs too long or they will be developmentally delayed. Give them a pacifier to reduce SIDS. Be careful about pacifiers because they can cause nursing problems and stop your baby from sleeping soundly. If your baby sleeps too soundly, they’ll die of SIDS.

Don’t let your baby sleep too long, except when they’ve been napping too much, then you should wake them. Never wake a sleeping baby. Any baby problem can be solved by putting them to bed earlier, even if they are waking up too early. If your baby wakes up too early, put them to bed later or cut out a nap. Don’t let them nap after 5 p.m. Sleep begets sleep, so try to get your child to sleep as much as possible. Put the baby to bed awake but drowsy. Don't wake the baby if it fell asleep while nursing.

You should start a routine and keep track of everything. Don’t watch the clock. Put them on a schedule. Scheduling will make your life impossible because they will constantly be thrown off of it and you will become a prisoner in your home.

Using the "Cry It Out" method (CIO) will make them think they’ve been abandoned and will be eaten by a lion shortly. It also causes brain damage. Not getting enough sleep will cause behavior and mental problems, so be sure to put them to sleep by any means necessary, especially CIO, which is the most effective form. CIO is cruel beyond belief and the only thing that truly works because parents are a distraction.

Formula and solid foods will help the baby sleep longer. Solid foods shouldn’t be given at night because they might wake the baby. Don't stop the baby from nursing when asleep. Be wary of night feeds. If you respond too quickly with food or comfort, your baby is manipulating you. Babies can’t manipulate. Babies older than six months can manipulate.

Sleep when the baby sleeps. Clean when the baby cleans. Don’t worry. Stress causes your baby stress and a stressed baby won't sleep."

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 Post subject: Re: Go the Fork to Sleep
PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:32 am 
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I like the part about the lion and "clean when the baby cleans" - when's that going to happen?

So how do you institute quiet time, though? It seems like getting a kid to do some quiet activity (especially if there is any chance of it being independent) would be even harder than getting them to take a nap.


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 Post subject: Re: Go the Fork to Sleep
PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:38 am 
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E's been doing the quiet time thing for a while. Our method is that I put him in the bedroom and set a timer, and ask him not to come out til the timer goes off. Sometimes he sleeps, sometimes he gets up and looks at books or plays with his stuffed animals or sings to himself at the top of his lungs...

For him, the timer is critical. It gives him something concrete to wait for. Also, being in a room with a closed door... He won't do any sort of quiet time/resting if there's anyone else in the room with him.

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 Post subject: Re: Go the Fork to Sleep
PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 11:53 am 
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We do the quiet time thing too (although we call it "Must stay in your room" time) and more often than not D does end up sleeping for at least part of the hour and a half. She sounds exactly like E in that sometimes there are loud conversations with herself and/or singing, and yes the door and curtains must be closed. This has saved our sanity (such as it is) for all these years and Dahlia is an absolute beast when she doesn't nap.


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 Post subject: Re: Go the Fork to Sleep
PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 6:30 pm 
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I had read a tip saying that for an afternoon quiet/hopefully nap time you can get in bed with your child and read a few books and then leave them to read books on their own, which often leads them to fall asleep. It sounds good in theory...


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 Post subject: Re: Go the Fork to Sleep
PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:22 pm 
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Baby still awake. She would do nothing but scream at the highest pitch as loud as possible when I tried to put her down. And she was totally faking distress because when I told her we had to be quiet because the baby downstairs is sleeping she immediately stopped screaming, giggled, and said shhhh! Then went back to screaming. I gave up after an hour and waited for my husband to come home.


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 Post subject: Re: Go the Fork to Sleep
PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 11:30 am 
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ugh it's the worst Ariann...sorry!
I suppose I should be thankful that Sierra goes to sleep easily enough but this middle-of-the-night bullshiitake is killing me. I'm seriously starting to feel anger at her during the night over it and I know that's not fair but I can't help it. So much screaming, the only way it stops is if she's in our bed attached to my boob. I know that for the first several months of her life I was ok with it and could sleep like that but it's gotten old and I just lay there awake for hours. I've tried to be reasonable and nurse for like 20 minutes and then put her back in the crib but she just screams despite all the shushing and back rubbing or just ignoring. My limit is 10 minutes and then I give up and bring her back because she doesn't wind down at all.


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 Post subject: Re: Go the Fork to Sleep
PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 11:49 am 
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She finally went to sleep at 11:30 and then was up and giggling at 7:30. That's not acceptable. Her wake-up time doesn't shift at all no matter when she goes to bed. On the sort of upside, the mom and kids downstairs are moving to Hawaii for 5 months (I can't really explain this and I am pretty bummed about it to be losing our primary playmates and co-op babysitting situation), so I may be more willing to let her scream if that's what she wants to do and not relent on bedtime once they go next week. I just couldn't let her scream any longer with three kids trying to sleep downstairs (who go to bed at 8!).

Audrey, I'm sure you've tried this, but would she suck on a pacifier instead? Or an empty, clean bottle?


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 Post subject: Re: Go the Fork to Sleep
PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:54 pm 
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I was thinking about why L goes to sleep so easily and early with me and fights sleep harder when my husband is home, and I think its just that when its just us, its a boring wind-down and going to sleep. But when he is there, not only is she catching up on time with her Dad, we play more games (we make the bed around her in a game of peekaboo that she loves), plus B is so much more indulgent with giving her a cracker or cookie before bed, so it tends to draw the time out (by about an hour - if its just us she is down by 8-8:30, if he is home its more like 9).

Is it possible that you're just so much fun that she doesn't want to go to sleep?

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 Post subject: Re: Go the Fork to Sleep
PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:38 pm 
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Ariann, sounds to me like it might be time to experiment a little with the neighbors gone. I know most of us are against crying it out in general but sometimes these kids are just sabotaging their own well-being, ya know? Malka probably needs more sleep but like Tlish says, maybe doesn't wanna miss any fun!

And yes, thanks, she never went for the pacifier. It's like she doesn't "get" it, she'll chew on it a sec and then chew on the plastic outer part and then throw it on the floor. And she's weird about bottles too: when H gives her one, she'll drink some and then crawl away and then we put her back with it and on and on. The one time I tried to give her a bottle (even a full one) in her crib she was outraged hahah. We had it SO easy with Dahlia because she'd happily fall asleep with a bottle and we admittedly used it as a crutch for the first 2 years..but it also seems like it taught her how to go the fork to sleep when she'd wake up in the night, because she ended up being very good about that without a bottle once we cut it out.


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 Post subject: Re: Go the Fork to Sleep
PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 4:03 pm 
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Tofulish wrote:
I was thinking about why L goes to sleep so easily and early with me and fights sleep harder when my husband is home, and I think its just that when its just us, its a boring wind-down and going to sleep. But when he is there, not only is she catching up on time with her Dad, we play more games (we make the bed around her in a game of peekaboo that she loves), plus B is so much more indulgent with giving her a cracker or cookie before bed, so it tends to draw the time out (by about an hour - if its just us she is down by 8-8:30, if he is home its more like 9).

Is it possible that you're just so much fun that she doesn't want to go to sleep?


I am not indulgent in the "one more book, one more snack" kind of way, but clearly she has figured out that I can be worn down. My husband did suggest that she just wants to spend more time with me. But more time screaming? We've also read that there are some kids who need to scream/cry at bedtime to get their tension out and who get riled up when you try to relax them down (we have definitely noticed that pattern), but for how long can a person scream at bedtime? Will she be doing this when she's 5? And it's so much harder to tolerate when I know she can so easily control it.


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 Post subject: Re: Go the Fork to Sleep
PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 4:10 pm 
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I'm beginning to reach the end of being okay feeding M in the middle of the night. He has really ramped up his night nursing because he's pretty much refusing bottles in the daytime when I'm not home, and he still is simultaneously so resistant to most solid foods. (And, the few things he does like-- by and large things E hates. So no matter what I make, one kid ends up not eating!). So he is starving at night and wanting to nurse every 2 hours or so and... I can't do this. It was ok when it was 1-2 times in a 10 hour stretch but jeez kid, mom needs to sleep.

He signs milk in his sleep now too.

I really don't want to stop co sleeping with him, but I can't just ignore him because he cries so much and I'm so worried he's going to wake E up and then there will be TWO wakey kids at unacceptable o'clock.

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