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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 9:28 pm 
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One more thing, during the debate he said no one really thinks rape is funny and that "everyone" was horrified by the Steubenville case. Um, no dude, everyone was *not* horrified. You really don't freaking get it.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 9:56 pm 
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couroupita wrote:
Ugh this whole thing just makes me sick. I have so many thoughts...just a few things rolling around in my brain:

-him saying he doesn't want to tell people how to respond to her (i.e., "thought policing") and only encourages commenters to respond to Lindy more intelligently. Uh...what? It's ok to tell people to stop threatening to rape a woman. Really. It's actually the responsible/decent/human thing to do and what he's doing is cowardly.
-I'm so effing sick of dudes telling me to relax about rape jokes. When you've been assaulted , are on guard 24/7, or as I've experienced, had a crasshole call you a croissant and threaten to rape you and then chase you because you didn't respond positively to his street harassment while just trying to walk your dog, don't tell me what is or isn't funny about trivializing violence against women, making victims the punchline, or using the word rape to mean anything other than sexual assault. Every argument this guy makes is proof he doesn't fricking get it (even if he says he does). He can't see past his own privilege.
-Lindy has been forwarding all these terrible tweets to him as an example of what rape culture is and its pervasiveness. No response.
-his interview on Opie & Anthony where the hosts chuckle over the term rape culture and say its annoying to hear people talk about white male privilege. They can all suck on a lemon. Seriously.
-I'm very curious how people bashing Lindy West would respond to other minority groups who takes issues over jokes about violence against them. Would they be so cavalier?

I think I need to take a break from the Internet and go look at some kitty pics.


Sometimes I don't know if people think rape jokes are okay because they're just ignorant and clueless, or if they just will defend it out of the principal that their privilege is threatened. And its not just rape jokes, but all kinds of jokes and slurs. You can ask as nicely and politely as you can to refrain from using such things, and its like you beat their puppy to death or something. Its a matter of freedom that they allow to continue to be oppressive, how dare you.

I'm thinking about taking a break from the rape crisis centre just because I'm really, really, really tired of having to be polite and educational and understanding all the time.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 10:08 pm 
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I really appreciated your posts Couroupita.

couroupita wrote:
It's ok to tell people to stop threatening to rape a woman. Really. It's actually the responsible/decent/human thing to do and what he's doing is cowardly.


I also thought this piece by Lindy West bears reposting: http://jezebel.com/5925186/how-to-make-a-rape-joke

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 4:42 am 
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I guess what I meant by him saying more is that this is an example of rape culture and no one should be subjected to that kind of horrendous cruelty. I read an article somewhere lately about the other side of making rape jokes--there's a possibility that there's a rapist in the audience, and the laughter validates his thoughts/actions. I think Jim Norton, from the position of the spotlight, is saying that this is not OK, hopefully invalidating those actions. It could be a charitable read though. The whole thing is horrific and I just want to give Lindy West a big hug.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 7:37 am 
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couroupita wrote:
Ugh this whole thing just makes me sick. I have so many thoughts...just a few things rolling around in my brain:

-him saying he doesn't want to tell people how to respond to her (i.e., "thought policing") and only encourages commenters to respond to Lindy more intelligently. Uh...what? It's ok to tell people to stop threatening to rape a woman. Really. It's actually the responsible/decent/human thing to do and what he's doing is cowardly.
-I'm so effing sick of dudes telling me to relax about rape jokes. When you've been assaulted , are on guard 24/7, or as I've experienced, had a crasshole call you a croissant and threaten to rape you and then chase you because you didn't respond positively to his street harassment while just trying to walk your dog, don't tell me what is or isn't funny about trivializing violence against women, making victims the punchline, or using the word rape to mean anything other than sexual assault. Every argument this guy makes is proof he doesn't fricking get it (even if he says he does). He can't see past his own privilege.
-Lindy has been forwarding all these terrible tweets to him as an example of what rape culture is and its pervasiveness. No response.
-his interview on Opie & Anthony where the hosts chuckle over the term rape culture and say its annoying to hear people talk about white male privilege. They can all suck on a lemon. Seriously.
-I'm very curious how people bashing Lindy West would respond to other minority groups who takes issues over jokes about violence against them. Would they be so cavalier?

I think I need to take a break from the Internet and go look at some kitty pics.
Thank you for laying out some of the stuff that's been giving me a migraine about this is in such a clear and concise way. And yes - kitty pics are definitely called for.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 6:24 pm 
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http://gawker.com/texas-says-its-ok-to- ... -511636423

Quote:
A jury in Bexar County, Texas just acquitted Ezekiel Gilbert of charges that he murdered a 23-year-old Craigslist escort—agreeing that because he was attempting to retrieve the $150 he'd paid to Lenora Ivie Frago, who wouldn't have sex with him, his actions were justified.

Gilbert had admitted to shooting Frago in the neck on Christmas Eve 2009, when she accepted $150 from Gilbert and left his home without having sex with him. Frago, who was paralyzed by the shooting, died several months later.

Gilbert's defense argued that the shooting wasn't meant to kill, and that Gilbert's actions were justified, because he believed that sex was included as part of the fee. Texas law allows people "to use deadly force to recover property during a nighttime theft."


Quote:
“I sincerely regret the loss of the life of Ms. Frago,” Gilbert said Wednesday. “I've been in a mental prison the past four years of my life. I have nightmares. If I see guns on TV where people are getting killed, I change the channel.”

During closing arguments Tuesday, Gilbert's defense team conceded the shooting did occur but said the intent wasn't to kill. Gilbert's actions were justified, they argued, because he was trying to retrieve stolen property: the $150 he paid Frago. It became theft when she refused to have sex with him or give the money back, they said.

Read more: http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local_ ... z2VTvBfy6a


What the Texas-sized-fuckery?

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 6:33 pm 
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First off, fork all that shooting nonsense, but since prostitution is illegal, do they even have a legal leg to stand on? She stole property that it wasn't legal to sell in the first place? How on earth can they justify that?

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 6:45 pm 
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He didn't actually pay for sex, he just THOUGHT he was paying for sex. See? Now everything makes sense!

Except the part where it's ever legal to shoot someone in the neck, ever. And the idea that denial of access to someone's body can be counted as "theft". You know. The little things.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 6:53 pm 
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Do you ever just take a look at the world and want to crawl into a little tiny corner and cry? I don't know. I got asked once why I let everything get me so angry (not in a defensive manner, I am not some sort of ragey person but I post on FB about things that bother me and I am not afraid to voice my opinion when topics arise) and I just ... why do they not get angry? I look around me and I see all of the things that I love and that make me feel happy too, but how can you see all of the terrible stuff that happens and not be affected? How can you just not care?


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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 6:57 pm 
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allularpunk wrote:
since prostitution is illegal, do they even have a legal leg to stand on?


Well the judge didn't vacate the jury's verdict, so its at least legally possible. But I expect that is a question for the appellate court, if the prosecution decides to appeal.

Also, how could a jury believe that the defendant shot someone in the neck and didn't intend to kill them. And how could anyone think that a woman's life was worth less than $150 where there was no threat to the defendant's life at all. Its messed up.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 7:11 pm 
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If he had shot her in the foot you could maybe make the argument that he didn't intend to kill her. Not that people should be shooting people, period. But NECK.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 7:23 pm 
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I'm confused about every aspect of this so I'm trying to read more about it. Apparently he shot at the car as they drove away.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 8:37 pm 
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Yes, he shot at the car driving away, and also didn't mention that he did it to get his money back to the arresting officer at the crime scene. It sounds like perhaps he got angry when she got into the car and left (she advertised as an escort, went to his hotel room, hung out for 20 mins and then took the money to go to her manager/driver), and then shot at the car in anger. The theft angle sounds like it came up once his defense was considering the possible options.

I don't want to argue too much with the facts, because I think the bigger problem is that clearly this wasn't the situation envisaged by the legislators and even the idea that shooting someone to get your money back because you didn't get what you thought you paid for is problematic, and especially so when what you are upset about is not getting access to a woman's body. Its just rape culture writ large.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 8:39 pm 
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Sarah-Jane wrote:
Do you ever just take a look at the world and want to crawl into a little tiny corner and cry? I don't know. I got asked once why I let everything get me so angry (not in a defensive manner, I am not some sort of ragey person but I post on FB about things that bother me and I am not afraid to voice my opinion when topics arise) and I just ... why do they not get angry? I look around me and I see all of the things that I love and that make me feel happy too, but how can you see all of the terrible stuff that happens and not be affected? How can you just not care?


I wish I knew. Just being aware of what's going on in the world makes me angry most days.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 06, 2013 9:16 pm 
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paprikapapaya wrote:
Sarah-Jane wrote:
Do you ever just take a look at the world and want to crawl into a little tiny corner and cry? I don't know. I got asked once why I let everything get me so angry (not in a defensive manner, I am not some sort of ragey person but I post on FB about things that bother me and I am not afraid to voice my opinion when topics arise) and I just ... why do they not get angry? I look around me and I see all of the things that I love and that make me feel happy too, but how can you see all of the terrible stuff that happens and not be affected? How can you just not care?


I wish I knew. Just being aware of what's going on in the world makes me angry most days.


Yeah. It takes an excessive amount of denial and selective blocking out to just breathe sometimes.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 9:33 am 
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I read this: http://bitchsandwich.tumblr.com/ and it got me thinking about intellectual privilege and feminism. While I hardly condone the kinds of sentiments expressed by the featured dudes, it appears to me that there's a pretty strong trend of them being young and (judging by their tweets) maybe not super educated and/or intellectually gifted.

I had an argument with my boyfriend the other day over something stupid and inconsequential, but in which I came across pretty strong. I told him flatly that his opinion was wrong, that mine was right, and that he was not going to win the argument. To me, in my head at the time, I was simply being confident and unapologetic about my knowledge and experience (the argument centered around a lawsuit; I have a legal background), and refusing to play into some role of the meek and apologetic female, when I was clearly the person in the "ring" with more knowledge. I didn't feel that what I said was insulting, and certainly had no intent to demean or hurt him. He got pretty upset. While I thought I was simply being frank and confident, he felt bullied by me. That blew me away.

I guess the link is that maybe that happens to more women than just me? We think we're being righteous and confident and badass, when maybe we've tipped the scales a little toward unkind and demeaning. I guess I feel maybe like that about the website above (and the countless other websites devoted to making fun of or shaming people for their indiscretions). I mean, not that I have much sympathy for dudes who post that kind of thing, but I guess I feel sometimes like it can be so easy to forget about our intellectual privilege and use it as a weapon, which just seems incongruous with fighting for social justice of any kind, whether that's feminism or anything else.

Anyway, that's my weird ramble.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 10:00 am 
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jordanpattern wrote:
I guess the link is that maybe that happens to more women than just me? We think we're being righteous and confident and badass, when maybe we've tipped the scales a little toward unkind and demeaning. I guess I feel maybe like that about the website above (and the countless other websites devoted to making fun of or shaming people for their indiscretions). I mean, not that I have much sympathy for dudes who post that kind of thing, but I guess I feel sometimes like it can be so easy to forget about our intellectual privilege and use it as a weapon, which just seems incongruous with fighting for social justice of any kind, whether that's feminism or anything else.

I really agree with this. I think a lot of progressive "rant" type blogs or websites absolutely cross a line into being unkind. Making fun of people who are ignorant about something, even if they are being hateful, doesn't do much except set up the divides higher. I dislike a lot of talk on these boards that follows that line of thinking too. It's so much easier to set up someone as other to make fun of them instead of trying to see where they're coming from. Which is funny, because if someone was 'othering' by way of race or sex it would be unacceptable. But if it's because someone shops at Wal Mart or has that sweet southern drawl, well then, sharpen your blades! Classism is a pretty accepted thing for a lot of people who would be appalled at others isms.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 9:26 pm 
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Not that its entirely a bad point, but that blog seems to be run by a dude.

I guess it depends. I think blogs that specifically go looking for something and include usernames often cross a line, but I've also seen personal blogs get spammed with ignorant messages and harassed just because someone seems to read "oh, you're black/queer/female/disabled, whatever, educate me right now or let me tell you why you suck" and I get why people get frustrated and don't want to deal with that. Although granted I can't recall when they've used classism to be crass.

I also think that (especially considering this blog) that sometimes allies get really overeager and miss the mark, like I follow a lot of Bioware blogs and some straight feminists will bark down any criticism of a queer woman character from men, while totally ignoring queer criticisms of said problematic, token character. Its a problem when you promote your own voice all the time without acknowledging that you have blindspots when it comes to this stuff.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 07, 2013 11:58 pm 
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Shy Mox wrote:
Not that its entirely a bad point, but that blog seems to be run by a dude.


That's pretty beside the point I was trying to make. I certainly don't think that "overzealous allies" are the sole problem when it comes to intellectual snobbery and bullying (and the necessarily implicated class issues) in social justice movements.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 8:34 am 
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^I don't intend to be a dick about it, if it sounds that way. I just don't think this is an issue of the identity or gender or race or whatever of the person abusing the privilege.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 9:19 am 
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I like your point JoPa. I don't have a problem with showing that sexist attitudes and comments and sexual harassment are often associated with ignorance, but I agree that (1) its not productive to a dialogue to shut anyone down and (2) giving the impression that only ignorant people do it doesn't help women, because then when you have perpetrator who is visibly intelligent, educated or professional, then there is a tendency to refuse to believe that such a person could be sexist.

I remember reading anecdotes by women talking about the polished, smart, kind and professional friend, whom everyone likes, who also carefully separates out the young women and assaults them, when given the opportunity, and the way that the friends then close ranks around the perpetrator (against the victim) to say "Oh well, he could never have done something like that because he isn't uneducated, crude or ignorant.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 08, 2013 3:11 pm 
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jordanpattern wrote:
Shy Mox wrote:
Not that its entirely a bad point, but that blog seems to be run by a dude.


That's pretty beside the point I was trying to make. I certainly don't think that "overzealous allies" are the sole problem when it comes to intellectual snobbery and bullying (and the necessarily implicated class issues) in social justice movements.


No, but it is an example of a man feeling righteous and badass and confident. And I do think its a problem with men allies because they're supposed to be checking their own privilege as well as other men's, I don't expect women to always be polite in the face of misogyny especially when harassed, but I assume no one has ever told this guy "bisque make me a sandwich" so its not really justified in the least. Chances are he might have condoned it before.

And my point is, that with some it is tone policing and identity matters. In an argument with your boyfriend about legal matters, fine, you're being a bully. A cis man making fun of other cis men for things he's probably done himself is pretty bad. But on the internet, particularly on sites like tumblr where the report and block system is broken and staff is slow and reluctant to do anything about harassment, some people get death and rape threats on a daily basis. The internet isn't kind to those without privilege, it opens you up to many more people than you probably come across in real life daily and I get why many have a no tolerance policy and don't want to have that conversation. Like I've seen black people who point out that they're very poor get harassed by white vegans saying that as black people they should be particularly compassionate towards the slavery of animals, they're no better than the KKK and anyone anywhere can afford to be vegan. And this happens A LOT. So when they later say very negative and perhaps rude things about vegans, and don't want to argue with the tenth vegan that week trying to have that conversation with them, I don't blame them. Particularly on blogs it makes the blog about what the bigot of the day wants it to be about rather than what the owner wants it to be about. I don't say it about other vegans because I've never had that kind of harassment and as a vegan I'm better off just trying to have that conversation with other vegans about why that isn't okay, so it wouldn't be okay for me to say these things.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 12:28 pm 
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The phrase "girl crush". Bleurgh.

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 1:28 pm 
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Imogen wrote:
The phrase "girl crush". Bleurgh.

What does that mean?

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 Post subject: Re: Who challenges your feminism in your life?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 09, 2013 1:37 pm 
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Mr. Shankly wrote:
Imogen wrote:
The phrase "girl crush". Bleurgh.

What does that mean?


Supposedly it's for a woman to say she really admires/fancies another woman, but definitely not in a sexual way, because of course that would be just crazy!

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