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 Post subject: The dreaded "No" phase
PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 7:46 pm 
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So...we did everything like we thought we were supposed to. We only said "no" to guineapiglet when she was in danger of hurting herself or someone else. Otherwise we always redirected her and explained why she could or couldn't do something. We thought this would ensure that we didn't have a "no" phase. Yet here we are, 19 months old and she is knee-deep in it and I am at my whits end. The most frustrating part about it is that I get the brunt of the no's and the brunt of just about all the not-so-fun behavior like screaming and crying.

I can't remember the psychology behind it but I believe I once read something about the primary caregiver getting the worst of this kind of stuff and it is true in our case. She is an angel at school and doesn't "no" her teachers, she also rarely does it with her dad or her grandparents. The only time she says no to anyone else is when they are invading her personal space or personal boundaries. But to me it is constant. In the beginning I honored he no's as boundaries and would simply say "ok" and move on to the next thing but now they've gotten out of hand. They are no longer no's to set boundaries they are no's even when she really wants to say yes. At this point I could offer her a panda bear, holding a puppy, holding a cookie and she would still say no. I'm getting soooo frustrated. The constant no's and the crying fits that seem to be accompanying them as of a couple days ago are breaking me down. She is absolutely excelling at everything else but in this area we are tanking. Parents who have been through this how did you deal? I need to know there is a light at the end of this tunnel! Any advice on what to do in the meantime would be great.

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 Post subject: Re: The dreaded "No" phase
PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:02 pm 
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We were the same way with E, and he went through a huge no phase anyhow. No was actually one of his first words! He definitely saved (and still saves) his frustrating behavior for his father and I specifically.

I don't know how we got through it... It was maddening. Someone recast it for me as him being able to communicate his wants, and sometimes I found that thought helpful and sometimes I didn't.

He's almost 4 now and the no thing's been over for a long time. Can't remember exactly when it ended, but it did end. Hang in there GP!

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 Post subject: Re: The dreaded "No" phase
PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:13 pm 
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DS went through a phase where he had two answers, no and no-yes. The no-yes made me laugh, so I think that helped me stay calm. It's hard to be super frustrated when you are laughing inside. Not impossible, but hard.


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 Post subject: Re: The dreaded "No" phase
PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:52 pm 
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Leela is in something similar, I think. We have done three things:

1. We have "Don't Let The Pigeon Drive The Bus" which we read to her so she can "get her nos out" Basically your toddler just gets to say "NO NO NO NO NO!!!" at the every page and its really fun for L.

2. We make a game of it - we reflect back playfully or we say "Oh did you mean to say yes?" or anything else that makes it a game and that relieves the sense of positionalness that I sometimes experience with her.

3. I also have had to just be unattached to the outcome. I offer something like "Would you like to go to the swings" And I KNOW she wants to go, but its "NO!" So then I say, okay, bring me your diaper and we'll go and a few minutes later she'll bring the diaper. Sometimes longer than a few minutes. But yeah, she'd say no to anything that wasn't chocolate or ice-cream in those moods - and then yes and then no and then yes and then no. I don't want to force it, so I just decide that its really up to her for some things, and I am not going to cajole or beg. And then for others, I have to sometimes just override the no, as you say, and distract.

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 Post subject: Re: The dreaded "No" phase
PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 9:06 pm 
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We've got that going on now. It's so ubiquitous that I mostly have to ignore it; if I didn't we'd never leave the house, I'd never get anything done, and I'd never have a moment where I wasn't doing a 180 to match her capricious whims. I think 'respect the no' is a great idea in theory, and the day when I have time to let a toddler dictate my every move I'll get right on that.


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 Post subject: Re: The dreaded "No" phase
PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 9:26 pm 
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@Annak Haha! You definitely can't respect all the no's. We just honor the ones that allow her to express her boundaries without overstepping ours like "Do you want to play your drums? No...ok cool." or "Do you want to wear a dress? No...ok, then you can wear shorts" stuff like that. It started off that way and so it was kind of cute for a second but the cuteness has faded into a deep dark place! ;)

@Tofulish thanks for the suggestions! We have that book but unfortunately she doesn't like it. She doesn't really a have "get the no's out" personality. She comes from two long lines of stubbornness and it definitely hasn't skipped a generation! We tried making a game of it today and it actually made her say no more - but with a huge smile on her face. The smile helped my sanity creep back in the room so there is a silver lining there. I think I'm going to have to quickly get to a point where I am unattached to the outcome. I think I'm still taking it personally that she says it to me the most and I have to get over that.

@DEG the no-yes sounds so cute and funny. Definitely helps bring the frustration down a couple notches I'm sure!

@coldandsleepy thank you! i feel like hugging you. There are so many things in her life that I can look back on and say "Hmmm...when did she stop doing that?" and I'm glad to know that this will be one of those things. You have no idea how much that one little last sentence comforted me. It gives me peace to know that one day I'll be sitting and talking to her and suddenly realize she hasn't compulsively said no to me in weeks or months.

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 Post subject: Re: The dreaded "No" phase
PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 10:16 pm 
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Yeah, I don't think there are any parenting strategies to avoid this. We also avoided saying no to Malka and her no wasn't one of her first words, but she has had long stretches of no no no no. She only says no to stuff she wants when she's having a tantrum, and I have learned to not ask her questions when she is in that mood. I give her a hug if she'll let me, but otherwise ignore her till it is over.

In general, if I am not going to give her the permission to say (and mean) no, I do not ask. It doesn't really matter if she wants to get in her carseat, etc. so I don't ask. Otherwise I am now trying to ask her to tell me what she wants instead of giving her a yes/no question. "What do you want to eat?" Or "do you want cereal or berries?" Instead of "do you want berries?"


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 Post subject: Re: The dreaded "No" phase
PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 10:49 pm 
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I thought of a few things that I think helped a bit. First, like Ariann said, I don't phrase anything as a question that my kids don't really get a say in. That just sets us all up for failure. Second, I tried to give as many choices and as much control as possible. I think the bulk of the no phase is just them trying out their new found power and their new found opinions and the fact that their little brains aren't fully developed so they aren't always rational. But I think a small amount of the no phase is just an attempt to exert control over a world in which they have very little control. I figured that by giving control where I could, maybe it would curb that small part.

And last, this wasn't no phase specific but just toddler phase in general. My motto is "your drama does not have to be my drama." If my kids want to tantrum, that's fine. I see no reason that has to ruin my day. I made sure they were safe and could not injure themselves, and then let them have at it. I feel like that sounds really cold, but I don't mean all the time. I give a lot of compassion and back rubs and comfort, but when they are just beyond that, I walk away until they have calmed. Under two, that usually meant fell asleep.


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 Post subject: Re: The dreaded "No" phase
PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:21 pm 
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Is mine the only one who says "no" whether or not there's even a question being asked?


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 Post subject: Re: The dreaded "No" phase
PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:36 pm 
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Haha, no.

Actually Malka had a whole conversation apparently with the car window on the ride home from the pool today. It involved a lot of "no" and "that's mine!"


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 Post subject: Re: The dreaded "No" phase
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 12:22 am 
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Oh god, we haven't really reached the "mine" phase much - mostly when fighting over stuff with other kids she just grabs it back with "no!"

I think the "mine" phase will finally break me, psychologically. When it comes I may ship her off to my parents and spend a week at one of those vegan yoga spa places.


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 Post subject: Re: The dreaded "No" phase
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 7:14 am 
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@Ariann - I never read a parenting book so maybe one of them says it but if I ever wrote a parenting book (which I would not! haha) "I don't think there are any parenting strategies to avoid this" would be the name of a whole chapter so parents wouldn't be pulling their hair our everytime their kid goes through a phase they thought they could avoid like the "no's" @Annak we also never use what we call the "m" word in the house but I'm sure despite our best efforts we will have a mine phase eventually to. File that one under the same chapter

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 Post subject: Re: The dreaded "No" phase
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 7:16 am 
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annak wrote:
Is mine the only one who says "no" whether or not there's even a question being asked?


Ha! Questions are just a formality around here. All I have to do is point to something, look at something, look at her, look at myself, think thoughts, you get the picture. The no's they cometh!

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 Post subject: Re: The dreaded "No" phase
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 7:26 am 
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DEG wrote:
Second, I tried to give as many choices and as much control as possible. I think the bulk of the no phase is just them trying out their new found power and their new found opinions and the fact that their little brains aren't fully developed so they aren't always rational. But I think a small amount of the no phase is just an attempt to exert control over a world in which they have very little control. I figured that by giving control where I could, maybe it would curb that small part.


I was just reading something last night that was similar to this. Giving them choices instead of asking so many questions. I tried this a couple times this week and it seemed to work 1/2 and 1/2 but I'm going to give it a more earnest shot because it completely makes sense. It also makes more sense now why she is so much heavier on the no's with me than with anyone else. I'm her primary caregiver, I'm the one with her the most and therefore the one who really exerts the most "control" in her life so I guess it would be natural for her to test our her own control of her life, opinions, etc. out on me.

Oh and with tantrums I do a mix of things. I don't think it's cold to not engage in a tantrum. We never engage in the tantrum. The most engagement I'll do is stare at her blankly like "really...really...this is your solution" I have to admit that tantrums, for some reason make me want to laugh hysterically. So much dramatics over such little things, it just cracks me up. So honestly most of the time I'm just trying not to laugh. Another thing I do that works with guineapiglet is I just sit down wherever I am and begin to do something else (pick up a magazine, sing to myself, etc.) and sure enough within 15 seconds she's crawling on my lap and giving me a hug. I wipe her tears, I tell her the reason why we didn't do what she wanted to do and then we move on.

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 Post subject: Re: The dreaded "No" phase
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 1:22 pm 
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I say "no" to my kids (2 and 5) all the time...like ALL. THE. TIME. and they never really went through a No Phase. They obviously say no to things but it's not annoying or frustrating to us and they aren't saying "no" to everything. If they do have a random NO day I give them a few options for things and if they say no to all of them then that's their problem and I go on with my day. :)

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 Post subject: Re: The dreaded "No" phase
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 2:39 pm 
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Sven is almost 18 months and just started saying no. His first time saying no the other day was actually hilarious -- he looked right at my husband, pointed his finger at him and shouted "NO!" Where do they learn this stuff?! We never really say no either (more like, "I won't let you hit me") but I guess it must just be one of those developmental things they all go through to some extent? I was totally freaking out about all the toddler stuff that seemed to be coming out of nowhere and I read a child development book that assured me that 18 month olds are at the peak of terrible but start to get better toward 21 months. So I guess I'm reassured? I'm hoping you can just wait it out because I have no strategies!


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 Post subject: Re: The dreaded "No" phase
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 2:57 pm 
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JENNA wrote:
I say "no" to my kids (2 and 5) all the time...like ALL. THE. TIME. and they never really went through a No Phase. They obviously say no to things but it's not annoying or frustrating to us and they aren't saying "no" to everything. If they do have a random NO day I give them a few options for things and if they say no to all of them then that's their problem and I go on with my day. :)


I do the same. I (and my partner too) say no a lot. I never even heard about not saying no. But I admit I read no parenting books, etc...F. Is 20 month and maybe we still have that ahead of us.
I totally get that you must be very frustrated guineapig. F. went through a phase when she threw a ton of tantrums (around 18 months) and it drove me crazy sometimes. I told myself that this is just what toddlers do. Sometimes their emotions are overwhelming for them and they can't cope. And they haven't learned how to be rational yet. I tried to tell myself that the tantrum throwing was just a phase. And indeed, one day it got better. She also did bite me, and only me, for a couple of weeks. Saying firmly no was the only thing that helped. She also stopped the biting one day. Hang in there.


Last edited by Mihl on Sat Jun 29, 2013 3:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The dreaded "No" phase
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 2:58 pm 
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Violet really didn't use the word no until around when I got back from Guam a month-ish ago (so I'm blaming my parents, ha ha). So she was probably 22mo.

Honestly, the way she says no is sort of cute and funny so I really am much more bothered by the tantrums...which are invariably over the stupidest shiitake imaginable. But all that pales in comparison to the climbing out of bed for an hour to avoid going to sleep. By the end of this deployment I'll have ground my teeth down to little nubs.


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 Post subject: Re: The dreaded "No" phase
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 4:13 pm 
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Yeah, I have to say with all of this stuff, I just let it roll off. Her "no"s are kind of cute, even when they are incessant. Her tantrums are even kind of cute once I got over the idea that she was really suffering and realized she just has to work through it and she'll be fine afterward. The fact that she's developing apparently planned misbehavior is rubbing me the wrong way now (looking right at me and throwing the food or hitting the other kid or whatever), but I know this is just an invitation to set boundaries and stick to them. That part is exhausting, but I guess it's what I signed up for.


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 Post subject: Re: The dreaded "No" phase
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 5:37 pm 
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annak wrote:
But all that pales in comparison to the climbing out of bed for an hour to avoid going to sleep. By the end of this deployment I'll have ground my teeth down to little nubs.


This definitely trumps the no's on the frustrat-o-meter! On the rare days that guineapiglet is super tired but won't go down for her nap or fights sleep I'm ready to either a)run to the backyard, throw my arms to the sky and scream dramatically like a movie character or b)break the seal on a bottle of vodka and go to work! Neither end up happening what usually ends up happening is me fuming on the inside while trying to keep a super calm soothing "let's go to sleep" exterior. Then when she goes to sleep, I look back at her little face and just melt. Nature knew what it was doing by making these little guys so darn cute.

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 Post subject: Re: The dreaded "No" phase
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 6:31 pm 
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mandycoot wrote:
Sven is almost 18 months and just started saying no. His first time saying no the other day was actually hilarious -- he looked right at my husband, pointed his finger at him and shouted "NO!" Where do they learn this stuff?! We never really say no either (more like, "I won't let you hit me") but I guess it must just be one of those developmental things they all go through to some extent? I was totally freaking out about all the toddler stuff that seemed to be coming out of nowhere and I read a child development book that assured me that 18 month olds are at the peak of terrible but start to get better toward 21 months. So I guess I'm reassured? I'm hoping you can just wait it out because I have no strategies!


Our little ones are a little more than a month apart and this sounds on target with us. What child development book did you read? I'm not really a fan of parenting books but I do like the idea of a book on child development. I haven't really taken a good look at what is and isn't normal since she hit all her big milestones last year. I really depend on all my mama friends and her teachers to keep me in the loop. Basically I said "yay! she's walking! Yay, she's talking!" and then never looked at another milestone again!

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 Post subject: Re: The dreaded "No" phase
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 7:12 pm 
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GuineaPig wrote:
Our little ones are a little more than a month apart and this sounds on target with us. What child development book did you read? I'm not really a fan of parenting books but I do like the idea of a book on child development. I haven't really taken a good look at what is and isn't normal since she hit all her big milestones last year. I really depend on all my mama friends and her teachers to keep me in the loop. Basically I said "yay! she's walking! Yay, she's talking!" and then never looked at another milestone again!


So I wouldn't recommend this as your sole child development book, but the book I just read is Ames and Ilg's "Your One Year Old: Fun-Loving and Fussy." They have a book for each year up to a certain point. I read on Ask Moxie about their theory of six-month cycles of equilibrium and disequilibrium and was curious to know more (basically kids are emotionally and physically in equilibrium for six months, then in a disequilibrium the next six months, and generally behavioral craziness builds for three months and then peaks at 18/30/42/etc. months, and then declines in the next three months back toward equilibrium). So far the pattern has fit Sven but I'm sure all kids are different and who knows if his behavior will continue to illustrate the theory so well!

BIG, BIG CAVEAT: The book was published in 1982. I found their observations of behaviors right on for Sven at 18 months and very reassuring that he was normal and should grow out of it, however, the Q&A/parenting advice parts, while probably progressive for the time, are really anachronistic. Like, one letter was from a mom who was concerned that her son was too close to his father and that might turn him into a homosexual, and the author reassured her that it was fine and likely that her child would grow up "totally normal." what the fizzle. Kind of shocking to read things like that nowadays!

It's funny, I think I'm possibly addicted to parenting books, but we don't really keep track of milestones either. All Sven's friends are in such different places and have different strengths at the moment that I feel like it's futile to worry about anything unless the pediatrician tells me to. But I was really glad to know that his behavior is totally normal, because I was feeling like a terrible parents since Sven seemed to become a totally different kid overnight!


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 Post subject: Re: The dreaded "No" phase
PostPosted: Sat Jun 29, 2013 9:31 pm 
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Wow Mandycoot that is crazy! To think, I was raised in the era where that kind of Q&A seemed completely normal to publish in a book. I really helps me out to hear other parents stories and know that it's not just my kid. Sometimes I feel victorious as a parent like when I started disengaging with her tantrums and they dissapeared for a couple months I thought "man, I have this parenting thing down!" then when they returned and a no phase came with them I thought "shiitake, I went wrong somewhere" this will probably be the back and fourth I experience my entire life as a parent but it's good to know I'm not the only one experiencing it.

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 Post subject: Re: The dreaded "No" phase
PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 8:55 pm 
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Just an update to how things are going. I'm scared to say anything because I don't want to jinx it but I feel like this week is already going better than the last. As one of my mentors said "kids will take you all the way to the edge, where you just can't take it anymore and then will suddenly become angels before you throw yourself out a window" and this is holding true over here. The no's are still happening and some of them are nonsensical but more often that not over the last 2-3 days her no's have been valid responses to things going on around her. She still said no today when she asked for water and I gave it to her but she decided about 5 seconds after her "no" that the power struggle wasn't worth it and relented. I'm hoping that last week was the peak of the insistent, compulsive no's and we're settling into a less annoying phase of no's. She's also started saying no to her dad more this week. So maybe that is really the key! Say no to your dad a lot and mommy gets a break.

I give such kuddos to my parents. I never realized what a crazy job parenting is. We're literally flying by the seat of our pants here hoping that our theories are the right ones for our kids and that we aren't totally messing them up (or at least that we can make enough money to afford the psychologist fees if we do).

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 Post subject: Re: The dreaded "No" phase
PostPosted: Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:01 pm 
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I've been reading this thread and like a lot of posters, I have tried to avoid using no with babynut. We say "uh oh" when she is doing something inappropriate or redirect. Somehow she has still learned how powerful no can be (and mine, which annoys me more).

When she says no, I really don't mind that much. It's kind of exciting to see her having her first opinions about things! I kinda love that she has wants and can communicate it so I try to revel in that.

We keep having this issue with nursing; she is a relentless nipple pincher. It's gotten to the point that when I cover my nipple or hold it out of her reach, she would unlatch and say loudly, "no!" My usual has been to keep redirecting her and keeping the nipple out of her reach, but I said "no!" back to her the other day and she stopped! Ever since that first time, I've been saying no and she has been stopping when I do. Big relief! We are finally on the same page it seems. I don't think she understood how much it was bothering me until I said no. So much for avoiding it!


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