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 Post subject: Re: Positivity and Feminism
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:42 am 
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I don't like the term because I don't think sexual orientation is described based on a single partner. I usually say "same sex marriage" when talking about the legality of people marrying someone of the same sex, because I don't think it really matters whether or not they're gay.


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 Post subject: Re: Positivity and Feminism
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:44 am 
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I think that the debate between terminology doesn't belong in this thread and if anyone would like it to continue, please make a new thread for it.

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 Post subject: Re: Positivity and Feminism
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:45 am 
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Jordan, I think you've got some great points there and I certainly don't think that everyone who uses the phrase "gay marriage" would be making a value judgement on it (in fact, some of my fellow LGBT friends use the phrase too!).

However, to give some context, here in the UK we have "civil partnerships" for same-sex couples, which supposedly gives the same rights as to opposite-sex couples as marriage, but is very definitely not the same institution, and it is in fact illegal to conduct civil partnerships in a religious building, to use religious readings, music or symbols or even to mention the word "marriage" in the ceremony! Hopefully that will change soon as the Marriage (Same-Sex Couples) Bill gets through parliament this year or next.

I worry that using the phrase "gay marriage" suggests that we should be happy to get something similar but different to heterosexual marriage, such as civil partnership. We just want equal marriage rights for couples, regardless of gender!

I guess I can't think of any situation where the phrase "gay marriage" would be really better than using the words "equal marriage" or "marriage for same-sex couples", so please do let me know if you think there is one!

ETA: Apologies, posted after Mr. Shankly's comment about discussing this elsewhere. Maybe we need a queer issues thread?

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 Post subject: Re: Positivity and Feminism
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 11:48 am 
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caterpillar wrote:
Tangent warning:
joshua wrote:
I ended up watching (fairly passively though) a lot of that. what a forking circus US politics are

Hahaha, I wonder if you're watching Australian politics right now.

ETA "it's like a Harry Potter book" - quoted from tv.

I saw a clip of the Today show yesterday (only of the hosts talking) and thought I was watching question time. so.. yeah. certainly not much better, haha

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 Post subject: Re: Positivity and Feminism
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 12:42 pm 
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I was falling asleep under a cat when I decided to check out the live feed before bed, and then I was pretty determined to stay awake until midnight. But when all of those people start whooping and hollering, I got so much adrenaline that I didn't go to bed until like, 2:30. It was so amazing and twitter was amazing and everything was forking nuts.

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 Post subject: Re: Positivity and Feminism
PostPosted: Wed Jun 26, 2013 1:38 pm 
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If you missed the Wendy Davis filibuster, this is a great article about it from our local weekly,

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 Post subject: Re: Positivity and Feminism
PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 8:19 am 
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Larisa wrote:
Oh, and if you want to see how this plays out in the American political imagination, see if you can get a copy of the movie "Mr. Smith Goes to Washington." The big pivotal scene in that is a filibuster done for all the right reasons.


I found the scene on Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HX8aFpnWxPA Thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: Positivity and Feminism
PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 8:20 am 
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jordanpattern wrote:
I agree. However, I'd say that there needs to be some kind of differentiating term simply because the discourse on this issue doesn't make sense if you're unable to differentiate "traditional marriage," which is currently fully recognized by federal and state bodies, and "gay marriage," which is not. Does that make sense? It's not a value judgment. I mean, the SCOTUS decisions on Prop 8 and DOMA today didn't pave the way for "marriage." They paved the way for a particular category of marriage, "gay marriage," which is currently, unjustly, recognized and treated differently than "traditional marriage." I'm not sure how that concept could be communicated without acknowledging that there has been a difference in how those two types of marriage have been treated, you know?

That said, I totally recognize what you're saying and really do agree. Hopefully this stuff just won't be an issue that needs to be discussed in differentiating terms for much longer, and the term "gay marriage" will seem as ridiculous as "gay lunch" soon. :)


I agree with you, but I would use "same-gender marriage" and "opposite-gender marriage" ("mixed-gender marriage" is sometimes used too, but legally, genders other than M and F are not recognized, so "opposite-gender" is more accurate for this context). Among the issues with the term "gay marriage" is that not all same-gender couples are gay (one or both partners may be bi or some other sexual orientation, lesbians sometimes don't prefer to be described as "gay", any number of other reasons why the people who are married might not describe themselves as "gay").

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 Post subject: Re: Positivity and Feminism
PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 8:48 am 
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I tend to use "genderless marriage". as in, gender isn't a factor in the marriage contract. I think that works?

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 Post subject: Re: Positivity and Feminism
PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 9:13 am 
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joshua wrote:
I tend to use "genderless marriage". as in, gender isn't a factor in the marriage contract. I think that works?


Issue with that term is that marriage isn't genderless if the people if the marriage have genders. But also, it doesn't distinguish between marriages that are automatically fully legal and recognized and have been all along, and marriages that aren't, and the thing that distinguishes the former from the latter is the genders of the people in the marriage, and in this particular context, that is a relevant distinction.

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 Post subject: Re: Positivity and Feminism
PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 9:44 am 
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I didn't mean to give the impression that I think "gay marriage" specifically is a great term. I just meant that referring to all marriages, regardless of the sex/gender/orientation of the participants, using the same term makes it difficult to discuss the issues particular to "gay marriage," a term I am using as a placeholder, since people know what it refers to, even if it is an imperfect term.

As far as "same gender marriage," if you want my opinion, that doesn't work either, since you could have people who are opposite biological sexes (and thus whose marriage is legal everywhere) but the same gender. That is, it doesn't actually refer to what we're talking about.

BUT. As we were directed on the last page, let's move away from the semantics in this thread. You're totally free to start another thread about it, though!

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 Post subject: Re: Positivity and Feminism
PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 10:35 am 
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jordanpattern wrote:

BUT. As we were directed on the last page, let's move away from the semantics in this thread. You're totally free to start another thread about it, though!

Yes, thank you.

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 Post subject: Re: Positivity and Feminism
PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 5:56 pm 
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annak wrote:
I don't like the term because I don't think sexual orientation is described based on a single partner. I usually say "same sex marriage" when talking about the legality of people marrying someone of the same sex, because I don't think it really matters whether or not they're gay.


the French use "marriage for all", term assessing that anyone is entitled to the same institution regardless the orientation - while the term "homosexual marriage" makes you think it's another/new special kind of marriage.

ALSO, besides "mariage homosexuel", the also wrong "mariage gay" is heard a lot if not even more: the problem then is that the word "gay" (in french at least) exclusively refers to males - making lesbians, as often, invisible...

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 Post subject: Re: Positivity and Feminism
PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 6:02 pm 
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somewhat conforting male feminists group: https://zeromacho.wordpress.com/english/

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 Post subject: Re: Positivity and Feminism
PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2013 7:57 pm 
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QUIT IT WITH THE TERMINOLOGY TALK. Make your own thread for that! That's so disrespectful to this thread, especially when I've requested, numerous times, that you make a new thread for it if you really wanted to continue with the conversation. So now I'm asking, can a mod please remove all of the terminology talk and put it in its own thread, please?

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 Post subject: Re: Positivity and Feminism
PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 3:02 pm 
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I love this clip of Dustin Hoffman talking about the realization he had about gendered socialization and unattainable beauty ideals when making Tootsie. Thirty years later and he is still moved to tears.


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 Post subject: Re: Positivity and Feminism
PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 3:28 pm 
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That was really interesting j-dub, thanks for posting it.

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 Post subject: Re: Positivity and Feminism
PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 6:37 pm 
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Damn. I've never seen Tootsie, and now I have to watch it.

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 Post subject: Re: Positivity and Feminism
PostPosted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:06 pm 
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Me too!

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 Post subject: Re: Positivity and Feminism
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 11:37 am 
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An all-female team of 6 Greenpeace climbers is currently climbing the Shard in London to send a message to Shell not to drill for oil in the Arctic: http://iceclimb.savethearctic.org/

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 Post subject: Re: Positivity and Feminism
PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2013 8:49 am 
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Imogen wrote:
An all-female team of 6 Greenpeace climbers is currently climbing the Shard in London to send a message to Shell not to drill for oil in the Arctic: http://iceclimb.savethearctic.org/


And an article about it in the Guardian ('The Shard protesters also struck a blow against macho activism: There's been a tiresome, sexist reaction to Greenpeace's all-female climbers, but what they achieved is valuable in more ways than one'): http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... greenpeace

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 Post subject: Re: Positivity and Feminism
PostPosted: Thu Jul 18, 2013 2:44 pm 
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The video in the link (spoilered because it's a really long URL!) is awesome.

Quote:
A few weeks ago, a now-wildly popular comment was left on the Facebook page of Bodyform, the British feminine hygiene arm of Swedish consumer goods company SCA, accusing the company of false advertisement. Richard Neill left the comment.
Neill’s totally sarcastic post has been liked over 80,000 times in just over a week, prompting Bodyform to release an equally hilarious tongue-in-cheek apology (in the video below) for its years of fabrications.




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 Post subject: Re: Positivity and Feminism
PostPosted: Sat Jul 27, 2013 6:13 pm 
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jordanpattern wrote:
Damn. I've never seen Tootsie, and now I have to watch it.

j-dub wrote:
Me too!


You guys, Tootsie is on tonight at 8:00 p.m. EST on TCM (Turner Classic Movie) channel. Commercial free! Catch it if you can--I always have fun (re)watching that one.

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 Post subject: Re: Positivity and Feminism
PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 7:35 am 
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Totally watched Tootsie (on Netflix) last night!

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 Post subject: Re: Positivity and Feminism
PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 7:41 am 
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8ball wrote:
The video in the link (spoilered because it's a really long URL!) is awesome.

Quote:
A few weeks ago, a now-wildly popular comment was left on the Facebook page of Bodyform, the British feminine hygiene arm of Swedish consumer goods company SCA, accusing the company of false advertisement. Richard Neill left the comment.
Neill’s totally sarcastic post has been liked over 80,000 times in just over a week, prompting Bodyform to release an equally hilarious tongue-in-cheek apology (in the video below) for its years of fabrications.


That's the best thing I've ever seen (relating to periods)!

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